Shootout: Mesa 400+ vs Hiwatt custom 200 vs Ampeg Svtcl

[Chriso21]

Ok,

So for these reasons...

(Boutique amps vs old faithful for touring/full time work)


I have just compared these amp stacks in my living room. For cabs, I used my hiwatt 410/115 combined cab, and a classic ampeg 810 (2006 model made in vietnam). The amps were a 2004 hiwatt custom 200, a 1982 mesa 400+, and a 1993 ampeg svtcl (I think). The ampeg doesn't have the ohmage for the hiwatt cab and the hiwatt doesn't have the ohmage for the ampeg cab (because my selector switch broke and is soldered permanently to 16). The mesa was tested with both cabs.

What did I think?

The cabs seemed to be the biggest difference in tone. I could get the mesa to sound very close to the hiwatt, but only with the hiwatt cab. When i compared the mesa to the hiwatt using the ampeg 810, it was impossible.

All three amps/setups sounded great, however - I have used the ported setup my whole life and the sound of the sealed cab was a little tricky to get used to and I'll try and explain why (go easy on me!)

For a start the ampeg was much louder than the hiwatt - I preferred a low input volume and high master) and the mesa was even louder than that (Hi input gain and low master) - crazy power in that thing - never got the master past 1!

With the ported cab I felt it sound a little lower, but also more fluid/breathy/woofy/looser and for me much more forgiving. I could pick very fast and sound in total control of what was going on with less effort and concentration (mostly because I know my amp I'm sure).

While using the sealed cab it was definitely more thumpy/punchy/hard hitting and bassy - but not as super low.

I also found that my compression pedal needed to be turned down to 9 oclock from noon to bring back the attack/fire, and the same with the sansamp drive and presence tone knob (all the rest are at noon) The tone was also nice but I also felt it exposed my playing alot more, like being in the studio- i guess that means its has more clarity/precision than the ported cab as I could hear every little detail of what I was doing (wrong!).

An annoying but honest metaphor would be where the hiwatt cab was a roaring waterfall, the ampeg 810 was a hard, fast punch in the face by tyson.

Every time i went back to the Hiwatt setup I always said to myself in a happy satisfaction "there it is!", so maybe its just something you get used to. Still, don't know what I'll do yet. borrowed all other amps till tomorrow afternoon so will do more testing. It was almost as if the ported cab was more wallowey/echoy and the ampeg 810 was tight and in your face.

The mesa was cleaner and dirty/gritty when pushed to tube distortion, where the ampeg was a warmer old school growl. I preferred the ampeg to the mesa - more useable controls. One the mesa I only had to breath on the master volume to change it alot. I also don't like the look of rack mounted amps (minor detail)

Anyone else had this type of experience when testing these amps? Any tips on setup?

[newbold]

I also prefer the controls of the SVT to the 400+.

Never played any hiwatt stuff but something tells me that it's got all the snarl I could never find with Ampeg that I was always looking for.

You must have had a great time.

[Alex1984]

I prefer the controls of the SVT too, they seem a lot more interactive. I've tried ported and sealed cabs, sealed cabs are definitely very tight while my ported EVs just sound HUGE, each have their charms.

[oinkbanana]

Originally Posted by Chriso21

For a start the ampeg was much louder than the hiwatt - I preferred a low input volume and high master) and the mesa was even louder than that (Hi input gain and low master) - crazy power in that thing - never got the master past 1!

are you saying the ampeg and hiwatt dimed were quieter then the mesa on "1"?
how did they compare @ "10"?

[nukes_da_bass]

NEVER mismatch impedance between a tube amp and a cab. You can destroy the tube amp this way! I forget how, but someone right here on TB told me and I have a fried Eden E300T to prove it. Something about the load etc etc...

[Mr. Foxen]

Knob on 1 being louder can just mean all the volume is between 1and 2 and the rest of the turn does nothing, just to make it impressive when you try it in a small place. Also better to compare cabs without pedals, especially stuff like compression and amp simulation, because those are things the amp should be able to do on its own.

[Chriso21]

I tried out a dual amp setup with my distortion going to the ampeg, and a clean signal to the hiwatt. OMG - it was amazing!!!

Is there anyway I can get that sound with a more portable setup?

[Baird6869]

Lucky bugger! 3 of my all time favorite amps (have owned the Hiwatt and Ampeg).

Sonds like a "lock yourself in the basement with a case of beer" weekend to me!

[Bassmec]

Originally Posted by Chriso21

I tried out a dual amp setup with my distortion going to the ampeg, and a clean signal to the hiwatt. OMG - it was amazing!!!

Is there anyway I can get that sound with a more portable setup?

One wonders why the output transformer and tube set still works in the hiwatt since the impedance of the combined cabinet is in fact 4 ohms unless you are using both cabinet jack inputs with a special series wired cable system?.
Get the impedances matched to the cabs before you even switch standby off, NOT after giving us an expert review?.
A mismatched output like that is costing at least half the output power of the amp as heat into the transformer windings, if the dr201 is really soldered up at 16 ohms on the selector and running 4 ohm loads like the ampeg or your hiwatt.

[chaosMK]

Cool shootout. I find they can take a while because some of these old tube amps can have a lot of personality to get to know.

The Bass 400+ has some crazy controls on it and the unusual "flat" setting on it. It's taken me years to really get to know mine (5+ years, and just now starting to fool around with channel 1), tiny things make a huge difference and it can cover a lot of ground once you get a feel for how the controls relate. I wish more heads had the same type of pull switch functionality (gravitates whichever knob closer to a more present midrange). I find it to be an extra dimension of control that amps with the standard knobs and EQ sliders can't really approach, at least if you like a the boldness that comes with emphasized mids.

Originally Posted by Mr. Foxen

Knob on 1 being louder can just mean all the volume is between 1and 2 and the rest of the turn does nothing, just to make it impressive when you try it in a small place.

My experience is the difference between 2 and 4 is at least double, maybe triple! I think that few people ever run the master past 4 on these if the preamp is reasonable 3-4 on ch2, 6-7 on ch1.

[Chriso21]

Haha, no I didn't use the Hiwatt on the ampeg cab or the ampeg amp on the hiwatt cab as I was WELL aware it would damage it. Sorry, I should have made that clear guys. Normally I would try the Hiwatt on both but the ohmage selector on the back is broken and set to 16 ohms only right now - I have used it on ampegs many times on the road at shows where I borrowed cabs, selecting 4 ohms on the back. I used the hiwatt amp on the combined Hiwatt cab I have which has a 16 ohm impedance, and the ampeg amp on the ampeg cab at the same time. The mesa I tried on both as it has all the outputs.

Right now I am leaning towards an ampeg svtcl, with an ampeg 810 for my distortion/fuzz/tubey sludge, and a mesa boogie 400+ and mesa diesel roadready 810 (a friend has one in his garage) for my clean channel.

I am going to test a bunch of sold state amps in place of the mesa 400+ too, just to try and explore a few more possibilities. I think the sealed cab of the ampeg with a ported mesa next to it will be a good compromise.

[Bassmec]

Originally Posted by Chriso21

Haha, no I didn't use the Hiwatt on the ampeg cab or the ampeg amp on the hiwatt cab as I was WELL aware it would damage it. Sorry, I should have made that clear guys. Normally I would try the Hiwatt on both but the ohmage selector on the back is broken and set to 16 ohms only right now - I have used it on ampegs many times on the road at shows where I borrowed cabs, selecting 4 ohms on the back. I used the hiwatt amp on the combined Hiwatt cab I have which has a 16 ohm impedance, and the ampeg amp on the ampeg cab at the same time. The mesa I tried on both as it has all the outputs.

Right now I am leaning towards an ampeg svtcl, with an ampeg 810 for my distortion/fuzz/tubey sludge, and a mesa boogie 400+ and mesa diesel roadready 810 (a friend has one in his garage) for my clean channel.

I am going to test a bunch of sold state amps in place of the mesa 400+ too, just to try and explore a few more possibilities. I think the sealed cab of the ampeg with a ported mesa next to it will be a good compromise.

Are you using the speakon on the Hiwatt Combined cab or do you have a series cable cos that cab is 4 ohms on the speakons, if you connect two jack cables from the amp outputs
to the cab biamp jacks the 4 X 10 jack and 15" jacks its still 4 ohms total according to hiwatt.
Two 8 ohm cabs in parallel is 4 ohms.
Product description
This amp again is a tried and tested classic. The schematics are faithfully followed from the original dr201 from the very first Hiwatt line up. 4xKT88s, 3xECC83s and an ECC81 along with the trusty Partridge designed transformers delivers the sound and tone in spades. Although not as awesomely loud as the 400w, the 200 Head has its loyal fans and the front and rear controls are identical on both heads.
Rated at an awesome 1000w, this cab effectively is a 4x10 and 1x15 combined in the same enclosure. The speakers themselves are the same as used in the 4x10 cabinet and the 1x15. Use the speakon inputs for full range or jack inputs to bi-amp into the one cabinet. Although typically loaded with Celestion, a special – Custom Custom, if you like – variant is available with specially designed Fane speakers. Housed in the usual bomb proof marine ply, this isn’t exactly light. However, the roadies needn’t book the appointment with the chiropractor just yet; two integrated trundle wheels at the back will help. The speakon input groups both cabs into 1 with a power handling of 1000w at 4 ohms. There is also a linked speakon for running an extra cab. Then, there are 2 jack inputs for the 15” driver and the 4x10” drivers respectively. Each input runs at 8 ohms.

[Chriso21]

No way mate.

I use the speakon cable to attach it full range at 16 ohms. Thats what it says to do on the back of the cab and also exactly what Hiwatt themselves in the UK told me to do.

[Bassmec]

Originally Posted by Chriso21

No way mate.

I use the speakon cable to attach it full range at 16 ohms. Thats what it says to do on the back of the cab and also exactly what Hiwatt themselves in the UK told me to do.

Sorry I got the information from here:
https://www.productpilot.com/en/supp..._0000242649/en
I see what it says on your cab. I was just thinking its very unconventional to run the two halfs in series as its a bit rare to have a 16 ohm cab in these days of 2 ohm stable tranny amps one wonders why they wired the speakon that way.

[Chriso21]

Yeah its a bit of a pain to be honest. Sounds great but no one can use my cab full range so i usually borrow theirs as my amp can do 4/8/16 ohms. no big deal but would be better if it was the same as ampeg/mesa.

Gonna try a two amp rig this next week. One ampeg svt/810 for distortion and effects and a mesa 400+/Mesa 810 for clean. Might sell the mesa 400+ for a mesa solid state of some sort. Do you know which of their SS amps is the nicest? thinking tool/mastadon/kyuss/david ellefson/rex brown tone (changing where appropriate)