Should I make the SVT-CL to VR switch?

[slick_tu]

I really like my SVT-CL (I use a Berg. NV610, Fender Js and Ps, and play blues mostly), but after reading all the good comments about the VR here, aside from JimmyM's "...an SVT is an SVT is an SVT...," I've been GASsing to make the change even though I've never tried one. Especially since I can get a new one for $1620 shipped if I get it before the end of the month.

I see the VR has more preamp tubes than the CL, but I read somewhere that these are split between the two channels, so the difference isn't so much.

The quandary: We're a bunch of old guys who mainly play for fun in the basement. Volume isn't real high, so the CL's gain control comes in handy. Since the VR doesn't have this, can I still get the great sound from the VR at reasonable volume levels? What do you guys think? Should I get a VR?

[jwindham]

I'll be brutally honest, and tell you about my most recent experience with an svt-vr. It just did not sound right to me! I have heard vintage ampegs, which to me are warm, powerful, authoritative, yet very musical. They just punch/cut right through with warmth and grit. However, I recently ordered one to try out, and had it sent back. It just seemed rather murky, and wanted to get distorted/mean sounding before I even go to 2/3. I dunno, it just did not feel like the "king of bass amps" at all. Now, I have heard (even from loud techs) that since 2007/8 the transformers have been resouced, and just don't have the same sound (which is a BIG part of the sound I understand). The tubes, perhaps, aren't the best either.

One last thing...The amp could have been improperly biased. Believe me, I wanted to keep that baby, but when I a/b'd it with the svt-cl, the cl seemed like it was "properly dressed" whereas the VR seemd like it was missing its shoes. I am not particualry huge in the cl, as I feel it is not as musical/rich as some of the vinatge ampeg svts I have heard. For example, I feel that the CL tends to favor a jazz bass, with strong emphasis on the lows, but with a p-bass, it just doesn't quite bring out the rich midrange I want to hear. Whereas a good working vintage SVT, for me, loves any bass thrown at it for the most part. I don't want to steer you away, as mine may have had "issues" but I find myself wanted to recommend finding a vintage one that has been cared for. Questions/comments are welcome!

[RickenBoogie]

Don't try to fix that which isn't broken.

[slick_tu]

Thanks, that's good information. Maybe that's the best move, look for a good vintage SVT.

Originally Posted by RickenBoogie

Don't try to fix that which isn't broken.

Another excellent point. The grass is always greener... and all that.

[jwindham]

I still think the CL is an awesome amp when you EQ is right. It has an awesome bottom end that most amps can't match. With the High switch you can really add some nice clarity with a p-bass too. I agree on the "grass is always greener" comment too. You have a KILLER setup !

For what its worth, one of the best live tones I heard was actually a fender p with a quarter pounder pu going into an svt-cl/410hlf. It had plenty of clarity/warmth/bottom. I haven't owned a CL, but I think with the right cab (like those bergs!) it can be a beautiful thing!

[johnk_10]

if it were me, i'd make the switch to the VR. the CL is a great amp but it never really did it for me, whereas my VR sounds exactly like my '69 SVT. as far as one of the posts above, all i cant think is that the one that he tried had issues. my '07 VR has been a perfect example of typical vintage SVT tone and power.

[bass.player]

Can't go wrong with either one I guess but i'll stick to my CL forever...

[jwindham]

John,
If it is true that there is a new source for the output transformers, is it possible there could be a big difference in sound/feel? I am also wondering if the amp could have been improperly biased. I spoke with a loud tech who mentioned that when Ampeg first moved overseas, they still were using the same transformer company that they had used since the 70s. If your VR is a 2007, it may still have a transformer from Electrical Windings. I would love to know!

But if there is a new company providing them now, perhaps they just have a different sound. One suggestion was that I could get better tubes, and replace the transformer with a Heyboer vintage SVT replica, and then it would deliver "that sound."

Or, maybe I'm losing my mind. Which, seems to happen often these days.

[johnk_10]

i don't think mine has the electrical winding XFmr's, but i'm not absolutely sure. mine was built in late '07 in Vietnam.

as far as the comment about them being dirty at 2/3rds, ALL SVT's are really dirty at 2/3rds, and have always been that way. they put out full power at about 11 o'clock (1/3rd) on the volume control. everything after that just gets more grind.

[peterbright]

I'd stick with the CL. Have had both & for your application, I wouldn't bother.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by peterbright

I'd stick with the CL. Have had both & for your application, I wouldn't bother.

ya, i agree. honestly, even though i favor the vr and vintage svt's, the cl's still my #2 favorite head of all time, and it's not so different to where you're suffering bigtime. plus if you like preamp distortion at lower volumes, you won't get it with the vr/vitnage. those puppies need to be cranked really hot to get distortion. blow you right out of the basement

[slick_tu]

Thanks for all the advice/suggestions. I understand all VRs are made in South Korea now and not in China.

[JGR]

I'd stick with the CL - I had a pair of them for quite some time and they actually worked better for me. I had a VR that I returned after only a couple of days - the low end was really loose. All were made in the USA.

[slick_tu]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

...if you like preamp distortion at lower volumes, you won't get it with the vr/vitnage. those puppies need to be cranked really hot to get distortion. blow you right out of the basement

That was my biggest concern. I don't think I could crank it enough to really appreciate the VR's tone. I guess most of you have just confirmed what I probably knew all along, best to keep what is working nicely. Thanks, everyone; it's been a great help, as usual.

Rick

[Tim1]

Horse for courses - I sent my SVT CL back when it arrived and fell in love with the VR that I asked for as a replacement. It seems to me that if you get a good one it does not matter whether it is CL or VR, USA or Vietnam or Korea. Hopefully these days the majority are "good ones" as QC seems to have improved. I have always noticed a difference between the CL and VR in that the VR stays cleaner louder whereas the CL dirties up earlier, even allowing for the extra volume control IME. The CL seems more similar to my old SVT2 nonpro, whereas the VR is more similar to the original 'pegs that I have occasionally been privileged enough to play.The key thing is to get a good one, after that the differences are all relatively minor.

[jwindham]

I agree 100%. Getting one that was properly put together is essential to get "the sound."

Also, I must apologize, in my post earlier when I said the VR was distorting at 2/3 volume. I actually meant 2, or 3 (out of 10) on the "volume scale." I felt like the amp was barely on, and it was already sounding harsh/dirty. I expected much more clean punch up until that noon mark on the volume. I really think that perhaps something was off about the recent VR I tried. Even the guys at Guitar Center agreed that it sounded a bit murky/honky rather than rich, even if a bit dirty.

I would like to hear another one before making any judgements, but for a $2,000 amp I wanted it to be perfect right out of the box.

[ahbassman]

CL all the way baby

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by jwindham

I agree 100%. Getting one that was properly put together is essential to get "the sound."

Also, I must apologize, in my post earlier when I said the VR was distorting at 2/3 volume. I actually meant 2, or 3 (out of 10) on the "volume scale." I felt like the amp was barely on, and it was already sounding harsh/dirty. I expected much more clean punch up until that noon mark on the volume. I really think that perhaps something was off about the recent VR I tried. Even the guys at Guitar Center agreed that it sounded a bit murky/honky rather than rich, even if a bit dirty.

I would like to hear another one before making any judgements, but for a $2,000 amp I wanted it to be perfect right out of the box.

that's really odd...every vr i've played has sounded very rich and full. could be the tubes...i know johnk wasn't as enthused about his until he changed out his preamp/driver tubes to ones of his liking.

but they do break up very early on the dial. that's just the ampeg way...depending on the bass, they almost all start breaking up around 11:00-noon.

[JGR]

Originally Posted by jwindham

I agree 100%. Getting one that was properly put together is essential to get "the sound."

Also, I must apologize, in my post earlier when I said the VR was distorting at 2/3 volume. I actually meant 2, or 3 (out of 10) on the "volume scale." I felt like the amp was barely on, and it was already sounding harsh/dirty. I expected much more clean punch up until that noon mark on the volume. I really think that perhaps something was off about the recent VR I tried. Even the guys at Guitar Center agreed that it sounded a bit murky/honky rather than rich, even if a bit dirty.

I would like to hear another one before making any judgements, but for a $2,000 amp I wanted it to be perfect right out of the box.

Yeah, that is similar to how mine was. It sounded brilliant in the store (which is why I bought it!), but horrid when I got it home, so I returned it. Only time I have ever had that happen with a piece of gear. I checked bias, tubes, etc., but couldn't find anything wrong.

[alembicguy]

My CL has it going on for my taste and I love it!