Shuttle 6.0 help

Travis Rankin · #1 10-15-2011, 02:29 AM

I bought a shuttle 6.0 210t combo in January.
First off, I love the sound of it.

However, I am having an issue with volume. I play with an Ibanez sr1205 fretless with a piezo bridge and an acoustiphonic preamp. It is a fairly hot output bass.

*Since *I first got the amp, i was running my bass into a trex ***
Comp nova compressor, with the output boosted. I had a ton of volume, more than enough for every show I've played with it. A nice clean tone and not once hitting the limiter. Now I have decided to stop using the compressor, I like the tone better without. But I can't seem to get the volume out of it, not even close. I have done a ton of research and have tried almost every possible configuration of the gain, preamp volume and master. But it limits and craps out at a really low volume (compared to what it would do with the compressor).
Now I'm under the impression that this shouldn't be the case.. I should be able to boost the preamp and get the same volume. But it's not doing it. *I plan on getting a 112t extension cab and I know that should help out but I just don't believe that I can't get the same volume without the compressor as I did with it.
*Can you tell me what's going on here??

*It's not really a problem with running the comp, but i like the tone better without it. But I need the volume I had. I don't understand.

Thanks,
Travis

RickenBoogie · #2 10-15-2011, 08:05 AM

Not sure exactly what you're hearing, but the fact of the matter is: volume is a product of speakers, almost entirely. 210's are no match for a full rock band, and matching speakers ALWAYS yeild the best results. So, a matching GB 210 ext cab is your best bet, no matter what else is going on.

MODELL · #3 10-15-2011, 08:29 AM

I'm definitely not an expert here, but maybe your compressor was somehow "buffering" the hot output of the bass' p/u's and allowing you much more pre-amp volume before clipping? I plug my ABG into the xlr input of my Markbass combo and my passive jazz bass into the 1/4". I use an active DI on the ABG so that I can closely "match" the inputs. The ABG has a built in active pre-amp (9 volt) and is way hotter than my jazz. I have the DI set very low and this seems to work. If I was to leave all volumes the same and plug the ABG directly into the 1/4", it would clip like crazy. Does this help at all or even make sense???? Oh, and I would agree with the last poster to add a 210t instead of 112t.

chuck3 · #4 10-15-2011, 09:04 AM

I believe that if you add the second cab, you'll be going from 8 ohms to 4, and that should help the Shuttle deliver more watts.

Or something like that. But it should help. (Maybe AgedHorse will chime in on this.)

svtb15 · #5 10-15-2011, 10:22 AM

Cant tell if you mean the LIMITER is coming on or if your volume is decreased by some other thing.. If the LIMIT light is coming on then the solution i have below will not fix it.. BUT if the limit light is not coming on try this.

Take a 1/4 phone jack and run it IN and OUT of the EFFECTS Send / Receive jacks on the rear of the amp a dozen times or so..
Sometimes the effects Send/ Receive contacts in an amp become corroded form environmental issues and the signal from the preamp to the power amp section is interrupted..
I had a similar issue with an Alembic Preamp and what i described to do fixed it.. Give it a try.

Travis Rankin · #6 10-15-2011, 11:14 AM

Ok sweet guys thanks for the help so far. To clarify without the comp the limit light is coming on and it farts out and sounds like crap at a way lower overall volume.
I have a feeling that what Modell said about the comp buffering the bass output is what is happening. Because I can get it way louder in that setup without distorting. I just thought that i would be able to do the same thing with the gain and input volume control??? No??

Now as far as adding a second cab, you guys think a 210 is the way to go?? Yes an addittional 8 ohm will double the output watts of my head since it will be running at 4ohms in parallel. I was thinking a 115 to add bottom end being that it is a 5 string low B. But if a 210 is better, then....

I found a great deal on an SWR 115 8 ohm 200w extension cab. Will this work? Or what? Not enough watts? Or should I hold out for a 210t???

Thanks guys! You rock!!

Travis Rankin · #7 10-15-2011, 11:35 AM

I don't have the cab with me, but I think the only arrangement haven't tried is to have the input volume maxed out, and the gain adjusted down low, you think this is what I should try to aim for in buffering the bass output signal. The other thing I haven't tried is turning the output trim down on the acoustiphonic preamp. It is for matching the output to the mags but I'm not even using the mags so I can turn that down. Honestly I think it is maxed out right now.

If I can get it to work without the comp. The same way it did with the comp. Than it has more than enough volume for my needs.. In this case do you still think adding a 210 rather than a 115 is the way to go? In an attempt to make a fuller sound rather than just volume?? Or just I get a 212? Or a 215, or a cab with 1x12 and a 1x15?
Just want to get the best setup for the buck
Plus less crap and weight to pack around and still fullfill my needs is ideal.. If I were to get another 210t I'd probably rather have a 410t to take to shows and leave the 210t in the practice room.
Thanks again

Epidrake · #8 10-15-2011, 11:39 AM

Running the Genz Benz with an extra cab so that the amp can run at 4 ohms and the full 600 watts is going to help a lot. I still can't figure out why you are getting such a volume drop unless it's a perceived volume drop. The comp/limiters make you sound louder because they even out the volume.

Travis Rankin · #9 10-15-2011, 11:40 AM

Just had an ah-hah moment!!!
The main reason I wanted to get rid of the compressor was because there was a slight distortion coming from it.. I'm thinking this must be because the output of the bass is too hot and it's buffering it, but it's still clipping at the input stage of the comp.. Does this sound right????

Travis Rankin · #10 10-15-2011, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epidrake

Running the Genz Benz with an extra cab so that the amp can run at 4 ohms and the full 600 watts is going to help a lot. I still can't figure out why you are getting such a volume drop unless it's a perceived volume drop. The comp/limiters make you sound louder because they even out the volume.

It's definitely not just perceived, it is waaaaaay quieter when it clips without the comp. I think it has to be buffering my bass.
It will be adding a cab for sure but still want to get this sorted out. If I can get it louder with one cab it'll be louder with two cabs as well

nicoli · #11 10-15-2011, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Travis Rankin

Now I have decided to stop using the compressor, I like the tone better without. But I can't seem to get the volume out of it, not even close. I have done a ton of research and have tried almost every possible configuration of the gain, preamp volume and master. But it limits and craps out at a really low volume (compared to what it would do with the compressor).
Now I'm under the impression that this shouldn't be the case.. I should be able to boost the preamp and get the same volume. But it's not doing it.

Using compression will always increase your perceived volume because that's what it does - quiets down your loudest sections and brings up the volume of your quiet sections - meaning you maintain a more constant volume that can be run at a higher average level. You don't hit the limiter as early because the peaks are smoothed out. Are you sure it's not just that simple?

Otherwise, any boost in output gain from the compressor you should be able to make up in gain on your preamp assuming it isn't maxed out.

Travis Rankin · #12 10-15-2011, 11:48 AM

Ya that what I originally thought and it could very well be, but man the difference in volume is huuuge!! Sounds like almost double.. Literally.

Travis Rankin · #13 10-15-2011, 12:16 PM

Ok so assuming that is my issue and I just use the compressor and be done with it, what ext. Cab should I buy?

MarTONEbass · #14 10-15-2011, 12:28 PM

As others have said, go with the 210. It has more surface area than just the 115, and matching cabs will usually yield better results. Resist the good deal on the SWR hat you found, i think you will be happier with a matching cab!

Travis Rankin · #15 10-15-2011, 12:41 PM

Ok, that makes sence. I'll hold out for a 210t or a 410t 4ohm.
You think it's easier to pack two 210t's or a single 410t to shows?

LeonD · #16 10-15-2011, 01:23 PM

Anywhere you can roll/push, the 410 will be easier. Anywhere you need to lift, the 2 x 210 will be easier.

The 410 will be one trip. Chances are, the 2 x 210 will be two trips.

The 410 will take up a single, larger space in your vehicle. The 2 x 210 will fit into smaller spaces in your vehicle.

agedhorse · #17 10-15-2011, 01:44 PM

The ahh-haa moment should be when you recognize what the comperssor is doing to your average volume. You need to understand HOW a compressor works first, THEN you will understand why you are getting the results that you are. The rest becomes the easy part.

1. A compressor reduces the dynamic range, that is the difference between the peaks and the quiet parts of the audio by reducing the gain whenever you get above the THRESHOLD LEVEL that is set on the compressor. The degree that it reduces the gain is controlled by the RATIO control, that is the amount of gain reduction for each incrimental increase in the input signal.

2. When you reduce the dynamic range, you INCREASE the AVERAGE POWER. Your ear perceives the average power, the dynamic range is more felt than heard, and contributes to the impact more than volume.

3. On your rig (other than maybe overdriving the input to your compressor and clipping that stage) you are appearantly compressing the heck out of the signal making it sound much louder BUT as you mention, you don't care for the tone as much... let me guess why: it sounds kind of darker and muddier, and doesn't have a clear impact like without the compressor. The impact comes from the dynamic range which comes with the peak to average content of your signal. Without the compressor, your peak component of your signal needs a LOT more power and is why you are seeing the signal hit the limiter on the amp.

4. If you are looking at a higher dynamic range signal, you need more amp and speaker than if you are playing a bore compressed signal. Do you have any idea what compression ratio you are using AND how much gain reduction is occuring while playing> This information is CRITICAL to your solution. You might find that reducing the ratio by 50% will give you a compromise that you can live with. You might also find that adding another 210 will give you the rig capacity to do what you need.

I would recommend readding up on compressors... both the DBX and Rane sites have great operational descriptions.

Hope this helps.

Travis Rankin · #18 10-15-2011, 02:06 PM

Totally makes sence, thanks. I'll try reducing the ratio. Hopefully that will suffice until I get another 210

Travis Rankin · #19 10-15-2011, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by agedhorse

The ahh-haa moment should be when you recognize what the comperssor is doing to your average volume. You need to understand HOW a compressor works first, THEN you will understand why you are getting the results that you are. The rest becomes the easy part.

1. A compressor reduces the dynamic range, that is the difference between the peaks and the quiet parts of the audio by reducing the gain whenever you get above the THRESHOLD LEVEL that is set on the compressor. The degree that it reduces the gain is controlled by the RATIO control, that is the amount of gain reduction for each incrimental increase in the input signal.

2. When you reduce the dynamic range, you INCREASE the AVERAGE POWER. Your ear perceives the average power, the dynamic range is more felt than heard, and contributes to the impact more than volume.

3. On your rig (other than maybe overdriving the input to your compressor and clipping that stage) you are appearantly compressing the heck out of the signal making it sound much louder BUT as you mention, you don't care for the tone as much... let me guess why: it sounds kind of darker and muddier, and doesn't have a clear impact like without the compressor. The impact comes from the dynamic range which comes with the peak to average content of your signal. Without the compressor, your peak component of your signal needs a LOT more power and is why you are seeing the signal hit the limiter on the amp.

4. If you are looking at a higher dynamic range signal, you need more amp and speaker than if you are playing a bore compressed signal. Do you have any idea what compression ratio you are using AND how much gain reduction is occuring while playing> This information is CRITICAL to your solution. You might find that reducing the ratio by 50% will give you a compromise that you can live with. You might also find that adding another 210 will give you the rig capacity to do what you need.

I would recommend readding up on compressors... both the DBX and Rane sites have great operational descriptions.

Hope this helps.

Ok, I did some more messing around and am currently under this understanding...

The compressed sound, no matter what configuration.. Blows nuts.
So ideally my raw output from the bass is what I want for my sound. In effort to keep tonal changes confined to the bass itself, and probably more importantly my technique. I would like to run my amp with a completely flat EQ.

Now, for practice time with the band in rehearsal, my setup is perfect.. Bass->shuttle 6.0->flat eq->210t (no compressor)

In a live setting, I want that sound from my DI pre EQ out to PA. Which makes my combo solely my monitor. I don't want to put the compressor between the bass and amp input because it will change that. So I should put it in the effects loop as it will raise the "perceived" volume for me from my "monitor" while I'm on stage??
If that works out then I should have the volume I need for myself and still have my "sound" for the audience. Playing live I don't need to hear my exact sound myself so much. I just want it heard from the audience. This should solve my problem and eliminate the need for an extension cab in most cases, if I can get the volume from my monitor like I had before.

Does this sound like proper thinking?

Travis Rankin · #20 10-15-2011, 11:23 PM

Or does the PA soundman benefit from the bore compressed signal? And just save my specific dynamic "sound" for studio work?