Shuttle 9.2 with Berg HT-112ER

[SCT1422]

I've been using this rig for most small and medium gigs for the last month and it's killer... But last night with the horns on the gig I found I may have been pushing this 8 ohm cab alittle much... I have the IP rig for the bigger gigs, but want maybe a 4 ohm cab to get the full power out of this amp... Looking for something small and light.. Ideas ??

[diglo]

Glasstone LIL G. I had the same problem wiht my Aguilar SL112.

http://www.glasstonesound.com/lilgpage.html

[rmars]

Maybe find a 2nd HT-112ER. Without knowing the voicing of the HT-112ER I don't know exactly what your looking for. I love my Berg HD212 and it sounds amazing with my Shuttlemax but the weight doesn't match your criteria. Those Baer ML112 are supposed to have some serious output and they are under 40lbs but it would depend on you tonal goals. The new Genz Neox 212 is only 47lbs and would work great with that head or maybe even a pair of Neox 112's or even Focus 112's....

Edit: Just looked up some info on the HT-112ER and it sound like it would play well with a Berg HD112 if you just wanted to add a cab.

[nordyboy]

The Ht112Er is a great cab but will struggle on a gig if it is on its own.
I found that the tweeter was also a little too smooth for my tastes as well, it is very polite compared to the HD tweeter.
I made the change to a HD212 which is amazing but a bit awkward to lift, now have the Baer ML112 which weighs 37lbs, is conservatively rated at 400 watts and will cover 90 percent of my gigs. I have a second one for when serious artillery is required.
The cab is voiced a bit brighter than your HT but a little eq can resolve that, and the output is just beyond belief!

[ga_edwards]

Using a 4ohm single 1x12 on its own to get the full power out of the amp might not appear that louder in reality. I think you'll get more out of it by adding another identical 8ohm 1x12 which would also get the full power out of the amp, but with twice the speaker area moving more air.
Sure it's more stuff to transport, but its still a smaller rig than a 'big' rig.

This is something I too have been contemplating, as I use a single 8ohm 1x12 with my LMII head and sometimes feel the need for a little more 'oomph'.

[gkbass13]

I love my ht1x12ER but it definitely will need some help in a busier/louder mix.

[nordyboy]

Originally Posted by ga_edwards

Using a 4ohm single 1x12 on its own to get the full power out of the amp might not appear that louder in reality. I think you'll get more out of it by adding another identical 8ohm 1x12 which would also get the full power out of the amp, but with twice the speaker area moving more air.
Sure it's more stuff to transport, but its still a smaller rig than a 'big' rig.

This is something I too have been contemplating, as I use a single 8ohm 1x12 with my LMII head and sometimes feel the need for a little more 'oomph'.

The Baer is an 8 ohm cab which can be used as a pair if required.
At 8 ohm the shuttle 9.2 is still pushing 500 watts, so the Baer will be able to use more of the amps power. The speaker technology in the Baer cab is way beyond a standard 12 loaded cab and will IMHO out perform a 210 cab.
Another ht112er would be a good option for the op to keep costs down if there is an option to buy one on the used market. Otherwise a super 12 is a great option at little more expense!

[Pbassred]

I just don't understand these posts. from 4ohm to 8 ohm gives you about 2db. Adding a second cab might give you a little extra, but when you get to this level, where is the PA???

[nordyboy]

Originally Posted by Pbassred

I just don't understand these posts. from 4ohm to 8 ohm gives you about 2db. Adding a second cab might give you a little extra, but when you get to this level, where is the PA???

The difference between one cab and two also meant the difference between 500 watts and 900 watts with my last head which gave a substantial increase in width and volume.
With my current head I have 500 watts at both 4 and 8 ohm so i do not get such a large increase in volume with 2 cabs over 1.
I take your point about pa. Currently I have not played a gig requiring more than 1 ml112 ( with pa ) I only really need stage volume for me and the band.

[agedhorse]

Let me help explain the challenges here as I get enough PM's and e-mails about it to justify some more in depth information...

With a Shuttle 9.2, you get well over 500 watts RMS into 8 ohms. IME, there isn't a single 12" cabinet on the market (that I am aware of) that can safely handle this kind of power while retaining long term reliability. The problem is that under this kind of power, the mechanical stresses and electro-magnetic losses multiply yielding huge power compression factors (meaning it just doesn't get any louder with the additional power input) and greatly increased damage to the suspension components.

One of the tests that I do when developing a speaker product is look at the large signal response. This includes factors such as distortion of the magnetic field by an asymmetrical electric field in the VC, the losses in the suspension, the loss of linearity, the changes in electromagnetic forces at the extremes, etc. This test looks at when the power compression curve transitions to a quickly increasing loss curve, and becomes the point of diminishing returns. It's also the point at which the speaker's lifespan begins to rapidly decline. Where these 2 curves cross is essentially the point of diminishing returns. This point is always below 500 watts for any single 12" driver (of practical sensirtivity) that I have ever measured.

So, how do you increase SPL and low frequency extension? By a combination of increasing the number of drivers (which will also double cabinet size and power). LF coupling will increase the low frequency extension and SPL, and the increase in power from the lower total impedance will also provide an increase in SPL. This can only occur if the total power handling increases with total power. In the 9.2, the 900 watts RMS between 2 cabinets (450 watts per cabinet) will more effectively produce SPL and LF extension... by as much as 7 or 8dB at the low end and ~4dB elsewhere (not 6 dB and 3dB because the reduction in single driver power compression losses get added back into the 2 speaker solution, and they are significant at over 500 watts)

Hope this helps.

[Pbassred]

With my current head I have 500 watts at both 4 and 8 ohm so i do not get such a large increase in volume with 2 cabs over 1.

While I hate to argue with my own point. The spec of your amp is " 500W/8 ohms; 900W/4 ohms"
using dB = 10 • log10 ( Power 1 / Power 2 ) it gives you an increase of 2.55db
You get 3 db increase by adding a 2nd cab. So that makes 5.55db in all.

Having argued, that still isn't much perceptible increase in volume, and the fact that you intend to use it all means that you will be stressing your amp.

[dukeorock]

Two cabs are typically gonna sound bigger and more full than one, regardless of volume. Though many disagree, I've never played a single 12" fullrange cab that seemed like 'enough' cab for me except for the very smallest gigs...when you get into the 'super 12' kinda cabs with a premium woofer and mid driver, that's another story.

All that to say, if you love the cab you have, I'd get another one just like it.

[nordyboy]

Originally Posted by agedhorse

Let me help explain the challenges here as I get enough PM's and e-mails about it to justify some more in depth information...

With a Shuttle 9.2, you get well over 500 watts RMS into 8 ohms. IME, there isn't a single 12" cabinet on the market (that I am aware of) that can safely handle this kind of power while retaining long term reliability. The problem is that under this kind of power, the mechanical stresses and electro-magnetic losses multiply yielding huge power compression factors (meaning it just doesn't get any louder with the additional power input) and greatly increased damage to the suspension components.

One of the tests that I do when developing a speaker product is look at the large signal response. This includes factors such as distortion of the magnetic field by an asymmetrical electric field in the VC, the losses in the suspension, the loss of linearity, the changes in electromagnetic forces at the extremes, etc. This test looks at when the power compression curve transitions to a quickly increasing loss curve, and becomes the point of diminishing returns. It's also the point at which the speaker's lifespan begins to rapidly decline. Where these 2 curves cross is essentially the point of diminishing returns. This point is always below 500 watts for any single 12" driver (of practical sensirtivity) that I have ever measured.

So, how do you increase SPL and low frequency extension? By a combination of increasing the number of drivers (which will also double cabinet size and power). LF coupling will increase the low frequency extension and SPL, and the increase in power from the lower total impedance will also provide an increase in SPL. This can only occur if the total power handling increases with total power. In the 9.2, the 900 watts RMS between 2 cabinets (450 watts per cabinet) will more effectively produce SPL and LF extension... by as much as 7 or 8dB at the low end and ~4dB elsewhere (not 6 dB and 3dB because the reduction in single driver power compression losses get added back into the 2 speaker solution, and they are significant at over 500 watts)

Hope this helps.

Thanks Agedhorse, that is really helpful!
Incidentally I would never drive my amp at full power or any where near!!!

[agedhorse]

Originally Posted by Pbassred

While I hate to argue with my own point. The spec of your amp is " 500W/8 ohms; 900W/4 ohms"
using dB = 10 • log10 ( Power 1 / Power 2 ) it gives you an increase of 2.55db
You get 3 db increase by adding a 2nd cab. So that makes 5.55db in all.

Having argued, that still isn't much perceptible increase in volume, and the fact that you intend to use it all means that you will be stressing your amp.

This is true purely from an electrical point of view. From an acoustic point of view, you must add the acoustic coupling gain and subtract power compression when looking at the potential of the system.

The 3dB adding the second cabinet is theoretical, and occurs only where coupling is efficient (mostly below a few hundred Hz) and decreases as frequency increases.

Also, the LF -3dB point will move down somewhat due to coupling.

[ga_edwards]

Official specs say 500W/8 ohms; 900W/4 ohms.

So you could have:
single 1x12 4 ohm cab throwing out 900w (if one exists to handle that power).
Or two 1x12 8 ohm cabs also throwing out 900w, with double the speaker surface area (which could be more conservatively rated)

I think I can tell which will be perceivably louder.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Pbassred

While I hate to argue with my own point. The spec of your amp is " 500W/8 ohms; 900W/4 ohms"
using dB = 10 • log10 ( Power 1 / Power 2 ) it gives you an increase of 2.55db
You get 3 db increase by adding a 2nd cab. So that makes 5.55db in all.

Having argued, that still isn't much perceptible increase in volume, and the fact that you intend to use it all means that you will be stressing your amp.

Actually this is not completely correct. I'm a bit on a crusade to clarify. The answer to all of this is 'it depends'. Since db's are a log scale, even a couple db increase in noticeable, and the typical 5db or so increase you get when adding a second cab with a solid state amp is HUGE. However, remember, it often isn't a volume problem, but a low end compression issue you are hearing (either coming from an amplifier hitting its limiting circuitry, or a too small cab hitting heat compression or compressing due to running out of mechanical capability).



That being said, again, it all depends. What is the absolute wattage of your amp. If you are starting with 500 watts into 8ohms, and a small 112 cab, then going to 4ohms is most likely going to have NO impact at all, since the cab is running at 'full performance' already. However, if you have an 8ohm 410 and go to a 4ohm 410 of the same design, that additional power, while only giving you a small but still noticeable increase in volume (assuming the 410 is a high quality one and can use the power), it would also keep you from hitting power amp limiting on your peaks, which would (or at least 'could' depending on the amp) result in a MUCH more open, non-compressed tone when digging in.

Just viewing an increase in power as 'how many db's increase will I get' results in some possibly bad desicions.

For the OP, the simplest, sure fire solution is to get another HT112ER, Given the wonderful power handling of that particular cab, combined with the optimal coupling of two identical cabs, will result in that full 5db volume increase (HUGE) AND a much more open, less compressed tone. That stack, with that head, will give you '410 like' volume with a much better low end response.

[diglo]

The Glasstone LIL G is a 212 in a 112 box...a lil bigger but still feels like carrying a single 112.

[nuwavedc]

The 9.2 and ht 112s are my exact setup. No problems so far, sounds great.

[Matt Morgan]

Originally Posted by KJung

For the OP, the simplest, sure fire solution is to get another HT112ER, Given the wonderful power handling of that particular cab, combined with the optimal coupling of two identical cabs, will result in that full 5db volume increase (HUGE) AND a much more open, less compressed tone. That stack, with that head, will give you '410 like' volume with a much better low end response.

I couldn't agree more. I'm running this exact system as well (SM9.2 + 2 x HT112ER) and the performance is absolutely superb. One cab sounds great at reasonable volumes but put two together with the SM 9.2 and it really delivers. I haven't had the opportunity to play any of the new "Super 12" style cabs, but the Bergs put out plenty of big, focused low end.

The only thing that ever makes me consider any other cabs is the rather stout weight of the Bergs. If Bergantino ever develops a new, lightweight 1x12 with similar performance characteristics and tone, I'd be all over a pair of them.

I'd highly recommend the OP find another HT112ER. Good luck with that!

[nordyboy]

Originally Posted by nuwavedc

The 9.2 and ht 112s are my exact setup. No problems so far, sounds great.

I ran that set up for a while, really nice with the 2 cabs hooked up