Small amp for stage volume only

atticpenny · #1 04-21-2011, 08:25 AM

I did some searches, and didn't come up with the exact answer to a question I have...

For small bar / restaurant gigs, my band has been running the bass stage volume only (not putting it through the PA at all). This has become a sound nightmare, as my simple SWR workingmans 15 (only 120w) is just too loud, even at lowest possible volume (can't go lower than 1.5 as the tone just disappears). It makes the sound on stage terrible; very hard to hear the monitors, and the bass still ends up too loud in the audience relative to the PA.

We would like to try running the bass through the PA so we can control the bass levels in the room, but not add another instrument through the monitors (already used by lots of vocals and instruments). So I think I need an amp that will work well for the drummer and I for stage volume, but not too loud to add to the sound in the room, since we will be running the bass direct into the PA.

Any suggestions or experience for the right amp for the job? I was thinking that a 12" speaker, 50-60 watts, tiltback style might be good (like an Ampeg BA-112), but with all the recent innovation in speaker and amp sizes, I don't want to rule out anything. The only thing I don't want to sacrifice is the tone of the bass on stage. It has too keep some full low-end. I can't play well with a thin tone on stage. I'm willing to spend some cash for this set-up, but I'm also willing to go cheap if the gear sounds good enough for the stage. FWIW, this is a country rock/ jazz blues band. I usually use a Sansamp BDDI 'cause I don't like the SWR WM15 tone.

Thanks in advance!

Downunderwonder · #2 04-21-2011, 08:30 AM

Is your drummer playing with feathers or something? Very weird.

Might be something wrong with your amp master volume attenuator if it's too loud at 1.5 with drums.

jaywa · #3 04-21-2011, 08:32 AM

Get a LowDown 150 by Line6. Seriously. It's a kickback style, 12-inch speaker, plenty of power (I've rehearsed with it in full band situations and master volume rarely goes past half-open), it models a variety of amp tones including Eden and the Ampeg SVT, you can set 4-presets (great for different songs and/or if you run multiple basses). There is also an onboard tuner that mutes, and onboard chorus and octave effects that aren't snazzy but get the job done. Oh yeah and an XLR out to go straight to the board.

The only downers to it is it's relatively heavy for its size, and the direct-out is Post only so anything you change on the amp changes at the board.

I have run this amp in the exact situations you describe and it is absolutely what I would recommend.

AMJBASS · #4 04-21-2011, 08:37 AM

I would buy a Gallien Krueger MB200 head and a small 1x12" cabinet. The GK sounds fantastic at low volume and is inexpensive.

atticpenny · #5 04-21-2011, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Downunderwonder

Is your drummer playing with feathers or something? Very weird.

Might be something wrong with your amp master volume attenuator if it's too loud at 1.5 with drums.

Ah yes... forgot to mention that the drummer uses electric drums for these small gigs. No problems at all controlling the drum volume on stage or through the mains and monitors.

SteveC · #6 04-21-2011, 09:01 AM

I use a Genz Benz Shuttle 3.0-10T and it's great. 18 pounds, nice tone. Loud enough for stage monitoring, great DI for bigger gigs.

Downunderwonder · #7 04-21-2011, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by atticpenny

Ah yes... forgot to mention that the drummer uses electric drums for these small gigs. No problems at all controlling the drum volume on stage or through the mains and monitors.

OK, even so, the drummer is monitoring himself off the PA? You should be able to do same with the BDDI.

Still, I really have a hard time accepting you can't turn down a 120W combo far enough.

guroove · #8 04-21-2011, 09:46 AM

If the SWR workingmans 15 is too loud, I would think an ampeg BA112 would be perfect. They sound pretty nice too, if you don't need super deep lows or sizzling top end.

atticpenny · #9 04-21-2011, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Downunderwonder

OK, even so, the drummer is monitoring himself off the PA? You should be able to do same with the BDDI.

Still, I really have a hard time accepting you can't turn down a 120W combo far enough.

This is where the problems start to occur. If I run through the monitors, it is yet ANOTHER instrument... we are already running three vocals, banjo, mandolin or acoustic guitar, electric guitar, and the entire drums through there (understand this is a small PA for small bars...not a big front line. Not a big line of monitors). Adding the bass would just contribute to an already crowded (singular) monitor mix.

For the bass amp, I can't turn down past 1.5 or the tone simply vanishes. If I turn up any louder it is too loud for the stage, and potentially too loud for the room (especially if I run through the mains).

So, I was thinking a less powerful / smaller speaker amp that maintains good tone might help control the on-stage levels, while allowing the bass to go through the mains only (no monitors).

It is a rather unique problem brought on by the size of the venues combined with the sheer number of acoustic instruments and singers, multiplied by adding drums through the PA and monitors which wouldn't normally be through them. lol.

Thanks everyone for their ideas and input. I appreciate it.

cchorney · #10 04-21-2011, 09:58 AM

Your volume - even if the amp vol pot itself is being weird - should be manageable by using your bass vol pot. I have the same amp (except I think its 160 watts). I don't really see why you don't get the tone you want thru the entire range of available master volume pot positions.

Are you setting the gain properly? If the gain is "all the way open" you might encounter problems such as you described. Set your tone choices first, then set your gain. The gain should be set just below the point where the led light flashes when you play hard. At least, that's how I always set it for a solid state amp.

I'm all for upgrading "just because", or due to GAS. If that's why you want a new amp, by all means get something cool/fun/exciting and post us some pictures so we can enjoy it too, by extension. But it doesn't sound like you need a new amp, just a better ability to manage your vol/tone.

Here is the owner's manual, take a look it describes proper set up etc:
http://www.swrsound.com/support/manu...0_12_15_om.PDF

Downunderwonder · #11 04-21-2011, 10:14 AM

Snap! Yes, preamp gain up to clipping, master vol down, not vice versa.

jaywa · #12 04-21-2011, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Downunderwonder

Snap! Yes, preamp gain up to clipping, master vol down, not vice versa.

Glad to see this. I had a guy last weekend tell me I was supposed to do it exactly the opposite (master volume wide open, and vary volume with the pre gain). I just looked at him like, where the H did you come up with that?

JimmyM · #13 04-21-2011, 10:53 AM

i am totally loving the micro vr with an svt 210av. liking classic ampeg tones is a prerequisite to liking it, but it's one of the best micro rigs i've ever played, and in its price category it's about untouchable. sounds great quiet or loud.

jaywa, the master up gain down thing comes from people who want the absolute cleanest sound they can get out of their amps. personally i think it's crazy and so doesn't get the desired result since it also adds noise, but that's the theory.

Pilgrim · #14 04-21-2011, 10:58 AM

I'm thinking that it's worth having the amp serviced if you like it. My guess is that there's either something wrong with the gain pot, OR your ear is telling you that you can't get a pleasing sound when the volume drops below 1.5.

That may or may not be something you can solve. It may be an inherent sound characteristic of that specific amp, and maybe a different amp would maintain a pleasing sound at lower volume...or maybe not. I think you'd have to test drive some and see how they sound.

If you need an amp switch, I'll vote for my Genz-Benz Shuttle 6.0. I sometimes use it with a single 12T speaker, sometimes with both the 12T and a 2x10T Shuttle cab...they stack perfectly. My surf band uses no PA at all (other than for announcements); each person uses his own amp. We have NEVER had a problem balancing the sound, and we've played rooms from 30 seats to 200+ seats. I'm pretty confident that you could tweak a G-B Shuttle to get what you want at low to moderate volume.

**IvanMike** · #15 04-21-2011, 11:02 AM

I'll be honest - with a SS amp like the WM 15, there has to be a way to play it at any volume. I've had to play 600 watt rigs feather quiet w/o a problem.

Mess around with the gain/master and tone controls. Try leaving the aural enhancer off, or using a bit more of it at these ultra low volumes.

It would also help a bit to describe what happens to the tone when you turn way down. Make sure that this tone change is apparent in the audience area and not just where you are on stage, etc...

atticpenny · #16 04-21-2011, 12:09 PM

I hate to say it, but I already do that. I always set gain first, then master (I play a variety of different basses (passive/active) with different bands, so proper setting is critical). There is a noticeable tone difference when I turn the amp down below about 1.5 on Master. the overall tone (especially the low end) is greatly diminished. I have even tried to work around it by leaving the master up around 2 and lowering the gain, but honestly, that takes away from the tone (especially with passive basses) as well. Heck, even with passive basses, I don't push the gain as I prefer a cleaner tone.

It is an old amp from the late 90s anyway, so who knows, maybe it isn't functioning the way is should, but I remember this has pretty much been the case with this amp since I got it. Very noticeable difference in tone from 1 to 2 and beyond.

I'm not a big fan of the sound of this amp to begin with, so that's why I'm researching other options that may work better for these gig situations, but still sounds good.

I had my eye on the Genz Benz shuttle series, but I'm worried it'll end up being too much power and be too loud onstage. I was also looking at the Ampeg BA-112, but I hear conflicting reports about the quality of these amps.

atticpenny · #17 04-21-2011, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveC

I use a Genz Benz Shuttle 3.0-10T and it's great. 18 pounds, nice tone. Loud enough for stage monitoring, great DI for bigger gigs.

How is the low end on that amp? I had my eye on that or the Shuttle 6.0-12T. But...I'm afraid of it being too loud in these situations, and I'm worried the 3.0 10-T won't be full enough tonally... living in an area with limited opportunity to try before I by just sucks. I either have to drive 2 hours or order it online...

Kenner · #18 04-21-2011, 12:14 PM

Sounds like a job for a SWR Baby Blue II

impactwrench · #19 04-21-2011, 12:22 PM

Can you turn the amp up a bit and use your bass volume to cut it back and sound ok? I too am baffled how your amp can be too loud, and if so, why look at amps with 2-5 times more power? Id suggest looking at something like a Crate BX25 or Fender Rumble 25. Something a step up from a tiny practice amp. Should be $100 or so used. I still dont see how you are going to be to loud with your amp but all those other instruments at the same time.

JimmyM · #20 04-21-2011, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by atticpenny

I had my eye on the Genz Benz shuttle series, but I'm worried it'll end up being too much power and be too loud onstage. I was also looking at the Ampeg BA-112, but I hear conflicting reports about the quality of these amps.

not from me. every ba-112 i've played rocks.