So many speaker questions

[CL400Peavey]

Originally Posted by Bassmec

Perfectly correct! the only real problem appears that unlike the young metal bass player with a modern uber 4X10, a sub octave pedal and >1000watts, the old experienced live sound engineer is somewhat miffed with all the crushing lows (usually ends up as boom outside of his bedroom acoustic anyway ) when in fact the only place in the bands mix and the halls acoustics for any intelligible bass guitar at all, has a great deal more to do with Chris Squires of "Yes" than family man Barratt of Bob Marley fame.

/agree

It also stems from the fact that manufacturers lists their cab with 1,200 watt power handling and a frequency response of 20hz, and unaware buyers believe these values. The manufacturer fails to specify that the 1,200 watt figure is thermal, and their 410 has a maximum mechanical power handling closer to 500 watts. Or that the 20Hz figure they quote doesnt have a +/- figure. So it may be down more than 10 dB at 10hz.

[Bassmec]

Originally Posted by Mr. Foxen

Lemmy uses a valve amp with the associated high pass filtering from the OT and the compression from the valves, using compression and a high pass filter will keep your cab much safer. It isn't about watts really, its voltage and frequency, and thus excursion.

I have had a number of tube amps with output transformers that do rather well in real low frequency performance Hiwatts 200watt partridge transformer even got the Germans measuring it for espionage purposes.

admittedly not any of my newer marshall's would measure anything like as good down there but hey that's progress for you, I replace them all with custom built Sowters (twice the size of the stock ones and a good bit bigger than mercury magnetics fat stacks) and a proper choke to go with the HT instead of a dodgy little ceramic resistor you get these days.

[astack]

+1 to basically all other posts.

If you're interested in spending a lot more time researching, there's a lot to learn to get good results. Worth it if you enjoy it.

Otherwise, go buy a used cab.

As for the tweeter comment, popular opinion here is that distortion pedals are noisy and otherwise sound bad in the high-highs, and it's especially bad through most tweeters. Again, does your guitar player use tweeters? Does Lemmy? Does an SVT? You can always turn down a tweeter, but sometime the crossover will still low pass the woofer so you lose smore highs than intended.

And when you think about how the whole band sounds, sometimes it's better to limit your tones. Don't boost super lows and mask the kick. Don't overtake the guitars upper mids. And don't try to compete with cymbals with a tweeter.

[ThisBass]

Originally Posted by Bassmec

To get the same sort of speaker reliability as Lemmy using a 1000 watt transistor amp.
You will need to run circa 10 times as many speakers, yes it will be quite a bit louder than Lemmy's rig if you do.
The thing here is that old school technology works by low power tube amp + massive cone area.
New school technology is all about getting a massive amount of speaker destructive power and applying it to the minimum number of maximum displacement highest power handling ten inch speakers with the lightest magnet materials you can find, resulting in a great many damaged ten inch speakers like yours that died of overpowering, nothing to do with your choice of eq or distortion, it was to do with a massively insufficient system headroom in voice coil power handling or put it the old way loudspeaker count.
These are totally different approaches to getting a rig loud enough to work in a heavy rock or metal stage environment, both work but I wouldn't be doing it the modern way personally as the laws of physics are, that to increase the low frequency power handling of a loudspeaker you will inevitably loose efficiency, agility, and the midrange tone will be sacrificed due to the heavily increased inertia of a inevitably heavier voice coil, suspension and cone assemblies.
New school lightweight bass rigs are in many ways only designed to be run ultra clean.
If you add distortion to the mix you will, due to unavoidable physics get exactly the same percentage increase in muddiness that you have achieved in power handling at low frequency per driver.
Every Action Has An Equal And Opposite Reaction In Science.

You are right.

I also considered the rated power of the svt-7pro.
And also considered the use of very heavy distorted sounds.
Probably it is not possible to push more then 1/2 of the rated amp power as a long term average (what means RMS).
Allthough it is not stated by any manufacturer but, running an amp at full rated RMS power all along the line will overload the cooling system and the amp will run into thermal protection.

It is like reading in a crystal ball but, for the given situation even with only 1/2 of the SVT's RMS I'd suggest clear enough handling potential for the drivers.

It is no secret that even some prof cab designer recommend to double the RMS handling capability for distorted sounds.

Most of the 3" drivers are purebred lf-drivers, so most of these don't fit the job for fullrange.
There are only a few 3" drivers out there that do this job well (with proper efficiency).
I myself know only two, or three, of them that really fit ...


edit:
BTW sometimes some folks belief and argue as well that everything would be ok as long as the power amplifier don't clip...

[mixamatchi]

Lots of good info in these responses. I won't differ with any of these opinions. A cab SHOULD be designed to match a particular speaker. That said, sometimes it's not practical to re-load with those. I personally have used a Dayton pa driver to replace some 10s in a 2/10 combo, and they sounded exceptional. #PA255-8 were the ones I used. It was lucky. No engineering, or science, just a stab in the dark. Your luck may vary. The drivers I used are cheap enough to take a chance. Otherwise, if you're willing to spend that much, go fEarful. Just better in every way, and I built mine for about $500.

[volerium]

Alright, a big thank you to everyone who's taken the time to reply/chime in here. Lots on information.. honestly has me feeling in over my head. I'll try to fill in more of the picture here. I'm in no way trying to sound like Lemmy, I just threw that out as an example since everyone kind of identifies him as full power, volume to the max kind of player. I guess that was a bad example since that's not exactly what I'm after.. The power yes, the tone no.

For anyone who's interested watch these short videos
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8r3PkD0Ts4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rDzHxgM1Yo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w92aMkbYFRI

Those are the closest examples of what I'm after. Loud, fast, distorted bass. I'm not a metal guy. It's more like rock or punk made thicker with noise. If that makes sense. Right now my main project is me and another guy, just drum and bass and it works out great. This whole ultra thick all encompassing tone doesn't work with a guitar added in at all and that's fine. We experiment with stuff all the time. I imagine we'll end up doing stuff switching between both guitar and bass and adding in a couple feedback loops. That's what I'm most interested in but there's other bands and stuff where that just isn't going to fit so I'll need to scale back, slow down, play clean..

A couple posts mentioned more speakers and I'm well aware of that situation, more speakers equals louder but that's not my problem at all. Craigslist is full of ampeg 810s for $500 which is a good price but I'd never be able to transport that from place to place in my car. I have a family at home and playing anything that big here is out of the question. Also, we don't play large venues or outdoor festivals. This is simply me playing practicing at home, going from practice to practice and playing house parties/bars. Before I killed the 410 I have now it was working out great. Since then we practice in my friends basement, he plays drums and sings through a 12in cab and I play bass through another 12in cab on full volume and that works out just fine. Like I stated in an earlier post, he replaced the speaker in his cab i believe with a 12in pa speaker and now it pretty much takes whatever you throw at it.

So to summarize things- Versatile, mobile and a tank. I'm looking for a 410 cab that can't be overpowered by the head I have, can get deep bass and a some high sqeals and can be loaded into a car. I don't know if I'm asking for too much here, like trying to be one whole band with a cab but I really don't think so. It's not a volume problem at all, I need a wide tonal range and the cab to last when being operated at the heads max power.

I have read all these posts, there are a couple terms/concepts I don't grasp but I feel like I'm learning for the most part. So what I'm thinking now is 8 ohm PA speakers with 3in voice coil wired in series/parrallel, remove the crossover and horn and fill in all the holes. Running at 8 ohms I could even run a second 8 ohm cab if I wanted to.. just more options I guess.
http://www.eminence.com/speakers/spe...=Kappa_Pro_10A
These speakers here, $130 a piece, will give me a 2000watt load at 8ohms I believe and my head is 500 watts at 8ohms.. and assuming I use any head at all it wouldn't seem a strong chance of me burning those speakers up.

Two things I was concerned about, how do I find the excursion limit of speakers? and someone had mentioned finding out what the cab is tuned to.. how do I find that out? and does that make a huge difference? I know all cabs have their own unique sound but can't you just throw a speaker in there and have it perform fine as far as sound? It's not going to sound like the original but would someone be like 'oh man that speaker sounds awful in that box!' I feel like I don't really get that entirely.

Again, I hope I'm not coming off as retarded or having unrealistic hopes in my sound search.
Thanks everyone for your input!

edit- Ok so the excursion is xmax, 3.5 had been recommended. Is that the number I should shoot for in general or is lower still decent?

[Downunderwonder]

Xmax is where the speaker starts to distort and stop getting much louder. The coil is overshooting the magnet. Xlim is where it mechanically smashes going in and tears the cone going out.

Excursion goes nuts on lower frequencies, doubling each octave down to get same SPL. Add to that you don't perceive SPL equally over the range. Mids sound louder than lows for the same SPL so it's a double whammy against us bass players, a goddam conspiracy.

You're bashing your head against a brick wall to find tens that will do 250W each and smile while making deep lows and sounding good. Not gonna happen shag. You ARE asking too much!

The one you linked isn't meant for bass at all, it's a mid driver 100Hz and above. Good luck with that! Put some BP102 in it if you can live with the mid hollow.

[Arjank]

Originally Posted by Downunderwonder

Excursion goes nuts on lower frequencies, doubling each octave down to get same SPL.

Excursion quadruples, so skipping the lowest octave with a steep filter will save you're precious speakers. Just let the PA do the SUB tones.

[astack]

Jesse doesn't use a tweeter either

I don't want to be "that guy," but I think you described a fearful, if versatility is your main goal. The 15/6 is the new 4x10, doncha know. Within your budget, too, either DIYi or built by an authorized builder.

To answer the question about how to (empirically) find the tuning frequency (fb): Put the cab on it's back, place a few pieces of rice on a speaker, do a slow frequency sweep between 20 and 60 Hz. The fb is when the rice stops moving.

[volerium]

Right.

Jesse Keeler is using 2 810 cabinets Ampeg or Traynor, which are sealed cabs loaded with 10in PA speakers. He's using a 1970s Peavey Super Festival f800b solid state bass head with built in distortion rated 400 watts rms at 2 ohms. (I've never found one of these anywhere) and an Acoustic 450 bass head, also solid state and with built in distortion circuit, rated at 170 watts rms at 4 ohms (just saw one of these last week at a shop for $340).

The cool thing about those old peavey heads is they run at 2 4 and 8 ohms and you really cannot kill them. From an expired ebay listing- "According to the manual, this is rated for 400 watts at 2 ohms. It can be used at 8, 6, 4, 2, or 1 ohms. It is a solid state amplifier and has a built in fan to prevent overheating. It also contains a 6 band equalizer for 100, 300, 600, 1200, 2500, or 5000 Hz." I'm not sure if the old Acoustic heads can be run at 2 but there's lots of love for them on other forums here.
Anyways, So Jesse is playing PA speakers, 70s solid state power with no effects and a hot rodded 4001 ric tuned D standard. And it sounds great.

Brian Gibson is using a Ampeg SVT Pro 4, 3 tube pre amp, rated at 1200 watt rms at 4 ohms ($1500) but he also has that massive Crown Macro-Tech MA-3600VZ power amp, which I believe is how he can play through such a wide variety of mismatched cabs and speakers at once, (used for $1000) going and a slew of random cabinets. Using Boss pedals and a 5 string Music Man bass tuned CGDAE. That sound is like a punch in the face and I love it every bit as much as DFA1979.

Crown specs http://www.crownaudio.com/maspec_3.htm

So.. I'm still searching through forums and reviews endlessly, haven't gotten to everything just yet and I'm not in some crazy rush to get something today. Lots of reading online

So I am asking too much as far as wanting a 410 to be both loud, full range and enduring. Looking at all the recommended speakers now, hopefully I'll get something close enough

This was a good one to read through
New Kappalites

[CL400Peavey]

Originally Posted by volerium

Ok so the excursion is xmax, 3.5 had been recommended. Is that the number I should shoot for in general or is lower still decent?

I like my woofers to have around 9mm of xMax.

Originally Posted by astack

I don't want to be "that guy," but I think you described a fearful, if versatility is your main goal. The 15/6 is the new 4x10, doncha know. Within your budget, too, either DIYi or built by an authorized builder.

True story.

[astack]

Originally Posted by CL400Peavey

I like my woofers to have around 9mm of xMax.

You should see a doctor about that.

Yeah, I don't think fearfuls are the panacea they sometimes get billed as, but sounds like a great fit in this case.

[volerium]

Just in case anyone's interested.. two months later and here's the update on what I decided to do. I bought the Dayton PA 10" #PA255-8, $160 shipped to my door and hoped for the best. Dropped straight into the front of the cab and wired them in exactly as the were, minus the horn, I just pulled the wires from that and left as is.

Power Handling (RMS) 300 Watts
Power Handling (max) 600 Watts
Impedance 8 ohms
Sensitivity 94.7 dB 1W/1m
Voice Coil Diameter 2"
Magnet Weight 50 oz.
(Xmax) 5 mm

I've played it maybe 90 minutes so far but it's night and day between the old stock speakers that were in here originally. Not all good but for the most part I'm really happy. The bass comes through great when played clean, can really hear a difference now switching between pickups. Before you couldn't really tell as much. Everything was real muffled sounding, didn't matter which pickups you were playing through but now, switch to the neck pickup and it sings through awesomely.
Some things I hadn't anticipated were that all my pedals sound different now. I guess that makes sense but it just hadn't crossed my mind. My boss odb-3 used to sound real thick but now has a more trebley sound, just higher pictched sound that I'm not fond of. All the pedals sound different so I'll just have to mess around and eq things differently.
It puts off feedback easier now, which probably isn't so great for everyone but I'm loving it, turn on the distortion and I can kind of control how much squeal comes out at different volumes. That's new and I like it.
Lastly, like I said the neck pickup really shines through on this. The D and G string both really stand out more too. However, at low volumes the last three frets on the E and A strings sound muddled which kind of sucks but all around a few small complaints seem completely normal.
Turned up loud all complaints disappear. All strings and notes sound great, had the volume set right at 3 o clock, rattled the house good and knocked some pictures off the wall. And the speakers seemed to take it just fine. So far.
I suppose the real test will be playing with the band for a length of time and see how it does. All in all, for as cheap and easy as it was to do, it was fun to experiment with. Not an ideal rig but much better than before for sure. I didn't bother with the tuning of the cab or really eq ing anything, just dropped in and started playing. I guess I'll post again if it dies on me.

[ThisBass]

Voice Coil Diameter is only 2".

I would not suggest to much RMS power input unless the Peak To RMS Ratio of the audio signal shows appropriate characteristic in dynamic transients.

But distorted sounds show nothing of them (dynamic).