So, is the sound of TC RH450 compressed or not?

[bassophile]

Hi,

After many hours of searching on TB I've realized that there are very contrary opinions about this head. I also know for TC's bad PR for declared wattage and "perceived" loudness, but IME declared watts generally don't guarantee anything in any sort of amp until you try it and decide if it's for you or not. (Please, I don't want another debate about TC ethics)

Now, I'm not much considered about loudness of this head as I am considered how the APM system works in practice. For me it's ok to have it engaged when the power is near its MAX, but is there any compression heard on lower outputs? And how would you describe that compression?

One more thing, as i'm deciding between classic and RH version I've realized that bass control is not the same. As manual states classic has low shelving at 200 Hz (TC youtube presentation says 180Hz) and the RH has bass control factory set at 280Hz. So they are not the same if you compared them out of the box. Also on youtube they say that classic has treble hi shelving starting at 3Khz and manual declares 1.6 KHz which is a significant difference IMO.

Thanks for your inputs.

[Duke21]

I don't think you will get a compressed/compact answer!

[bassophile]

Originally Posted by Duke21

I don't think you will get a compressed/compact answer!

[KJung]

The opinion of most of us regarding the actual sound of the RH450 has not changed over time (and it hasn't changed!).

If you check out my clips and my early reviews, you can hear that, at least with the RH450 and Classic, the head is voiced to (in my words) emulate a full vintage type rig (i.e., a tube amp through a sealed, one way multi 10 rig). It does that very well, and due to the preamp design, the low end is a bit compressed and the top end is purposely attenuated with lo passing so that, even if you are playing out of a modern, ported, deeply voiced cab, you get that bit of 'old school' sealed cab and tube vibe (i.e., lots of warm mids, a very organic top end that has no upper treble, and a low end that is tight and that 'gives' a bit when pushed, I assume due to the combination of low absolute power but very high end and effective power management and tube power emulation).

Most of this has little to do with the power design, and that tone is inherent in the head at all volumes. The power management system does kick in when you really push the amp at extremely loud levels, and gives you a bit of the 'give and feel' of a real tube amp (not a lot... but some).

Long before the power issue came out, I eventually tired of this baked in voicing, and went back to the more open and neutral performance of my Markbass heads (or the Genz Streamliner for the tubey thing). The Streamliner does a great job of emulating an all tube amp, but is not voiced to emulate the sealed one way cab part of the rig.

The RH450/Classic are very loud heads compared to most other micro's, and the feature set and quality are amazing. However, IMO they do have a STONG baked in voice that always results in a bit of a tight, compressed feel (the RH750 has a feature that lets you widen the top end, but that doesn't really impact the entire feel of the amp). That isn't bad, it just 'is'!

IMO and a lot of IME on this one.

[4-string]

I have only played through the RH750, so keep that in mind.

With TubeTone and Spectracomp off I don't hear much compression at low volume levels. However, pushing it at very loud levels it seems to react in a way that is somewhat similar to an all tube amp. Definitely some sort of "give" to the feel, compressed and not super clean. I say somewhat because unlike other users I don't really think it is THAT tube like, which to me is a good thing. To my ear, all the things going on with compression, tube tone etc. in these amps works really well because it never seems to harm the complexity in the mids.

These heads are deliberately voiced to emulate all tube amps - relatively successfull IMO, but not quite the give of an all tube amp, and definitely not the bump in the upper mids/presence are that most tube amps seem to have (unless you EQ it in). Again, a good thing IMO.

Unless you want very clean and very loud the TCE heads are worth a closer look.

All IMO of course.

[4-string]

Or what Ken said.

[parapentep70]

100% agree with KJung, I have the RH750.

I'd add that the basic voicing is not challenging for speakers, you can boost bass with lower risk of "eating" all power in deep lows (the bass you bosst is not that deep). And this bass boost should work better than usual with limited cabs (I have not tried at full power yet, still finishing my custom cabs).

I'd say the sound is like "commercial recordings nowadays": They are equalized to sound good on crappy car speakers or in malls, they sound good everywhere. And with a different equalization / compression they could sound a tad better on high end speakers, but at the expense of sounding much worse on 99% of the speakers out there (which is unfortunate in my opinion).

I think TC electronic have been good for years with studio audio processors... that make your bass sound good (and loud) through car / mall / small radio / phone speakers.

[Rick Auricchio]

+1 to what Ken and 4string said.

Originally Posted by 4-string

With TubeTone and Spectracomp off I don't hear much compression at low volume levels.

I keep the Spectracomp set so it just starts to grab when I play hard, just about where the input-overload light blinks. So it isn't interfering with my playing, and at low levels I'm fine.

Unless you want very clean and very loud the TCE heads are worth a closer look.

I'd like to reword this for clarification: Unless you want clean at very loud levels the TCE heads are worth a closer look. They'll get extremely loud, but at those levels they'll deliberately lose some clarity.

[vin*tone]

I've never really noticed the APM compression if that's what the OP is asking but my ear is probably not as discerning as some others.

* IMO a lot of people posting about compression on the APM have formulated opinions based on what they see in graphs, not how it sounds.

[Rick Auricchio]

I agree...the APM compression doesn't seem to be an issue for me.

The SpectraComp, if set to aggressively, drives me nuts. I used to disable the compression on the Eden heads because it seemed impossible to deliberately dig in when I wanted to.

[Bassflute]

Originally Posted by bassophile

Hi,

After many hours of searching on TB I've realized that there are very contrary opinions about this head. I also know for TC's bad PR for declared wattage and "perceived" loudness, but IME declared watts generally don't guarantee anything in any sort of amp until you try it and decide if it's for you or not. (Please, I don't want another debate about TC ethics)

Now, I'm not much considered about loudness of this head as I am considered how the APM system works in practice. For me it's ok to have it engaged when the power is near its MAX, but is there any compression heard on lower outputs? And how would you describe that compression?

One more thing, as i'm deciding between classic and RH version I've realized that bass control is not the same. As manual states classic has low shelving at 200 Hz (TC youtube presentation says 180Hz) and the RH has bass control factory set at 280Hz. So they are not the same if you compared them out of the box. Also on youtube they say that classic has treble hi shelving starting at 3Khz and manual declares 1.6 KHz which is a significant difference IMO.

Thanks for your inputs.

It took Bass Gear Magazine to put into words what my ears were telling me - this amp compresses ALL THE TIME. Not just compression, but serious limiting as well. I initially liked the sound, but after using them for a while, I like them less and less now that I know what's going on. I'd rather have an amp the I can control the sound of, not one that's controlling me.

Originally Posted by KJung

The opinion of most of us regarding the actual sound of the RH450 has not changed over time (and it hasn't changed!).

If you check out my clips and my early reviews, you can hear that, at least with the RH450 and Classic, the head is voiced to (in my words) emulate a full vintage type rig (i.e., a tube amp through a sealed, one way multi 10 rig). It does that very well, and due to the preamp design, the low end is a bit compressed and the top end is purposely attenuated with lo passing so that, even if you are playing out of a modern, ported, deeply voiced cab, you get that bit of 'old school' sealed cab and tube vibe (i.e., lots of warm mids, a very organic top end that has no upper treble, and a low end that is tight and that 'gives' a bit when pushed, I assume due to the combination of low absolute power but very high end and effective power management and tube power emulation).

Most of this has little to do with the power design, and that tone is inherent in the head at all volumes. The power management system does kick in when you really push the amp at extremely loud levels, and gives you a bit of the 'give and feel' of a real tube amp (not a lot... but some).

Long before the power issue came out, I eventually tired of this baked in voicing, and went back to the more open and neutral performance of my Markbass heads (or the Genz Streamliner for the tubey thing). The Streamliner does a great job of emulating an all tube amp, but is not voiced to emulate the sealed one way cab part of the rig.

The RH450/Classic are very loud heads compared to most other micro's, and the feature set and quality are amazing. However, IMO they do have a STONG baked in voice that always results in a bit of a tight, compressed feel (the RH750 has a feature that lets you widen the top end, but that doesn't really impact the entire feel of the amp). That isn't bad, it just 'is'!

IMO and a lot of IME on this one.

I agree with you whole-heartedly on this. The amp now bugs me. Wish there was a way to turn that 'off'.

Originally Posted by vin*tone

I've never really noticed the APM compression if that's what the OP is asking but my ear is probably not as discerning as some others.

* IMO a lot of people posting about compression on the APM have formulated opinions based on what they see in graphs, not how it sounds.

For me, the graphs clarified what I was already feeling and hearing.

Originally Posted by Rick Auricchio

I agree...the APM compression doesn't seem to be an issue for me.

The SpectraComp, if set to aggressively, drives me nuts. I used to disable the compression on the Eden heads because it seemed impossible to deliberately dig in when I wanted to.

Yes, don't like the onboard compressor much at all, like OST on board compressors. The only onboard amp compressor that I have ever liked is the one on the AER amps, which is superb.

Cheers,
Cameron

[bassophile]

First, thank you everyone for highly informative inputs. All of you are right especially Kjung with most objective judgments on everything on this forum. Thanks KJUNG!!!

Second - I bought RH450 today.

Story began yesterday morning after borrowing it for testing. After initial period of being highly skeptical during A/B testing in living room with my Tecamp puma 350 and Markbass LMII which were so faster and cleaner, I decided to give it another and last shot at gig last night. (Cabinet is Markbass NY 122 (2x12)).

After first few notes with band at moderate level I was stoned. That was tone I was searching for last few years. It has optimal combination of all tube amp benefits and micro amp loudness and punch.

Now, I'll try to be maximally objective if it's possible:
Despite that APM isn't engaged on all levels there is some sort of highly musical and organic compression that can be heard all the time which is very very subtle and doesn't interfere too much with playing dynamics. (compared to above mentioned heads)

Tubetone works very well and is very usable.


Spectracomp performs great bit IMO less of it is better since there is initial compression going on.

EQ is very musical and usable, it's almost impossible to ruin the tone.

TC's description of APM is totally true, because IME all the sparks and transients of Tecamp and Markbass heads are lost in live band situation because bass transients are not so heard-able when you have drummer and guitar playing beside. Everything you really hear is RMS. SS amp while being able to pronounce those transients instantly it also puts a great deal of power for something which cannot be heard, which leads to lower RMS or effective loudness for declared wattage.

Definitely one of the amps which optimizes the performing factors in live band situation at the price of lower audio fidelity when playing in your room.
Also really nails that all tube sound but more efficiently at very loud levels.



CONS: Tuner and memory presets can't be seen if you are near the amp which is placed lower on small cab, because of control plate being inserted into case.



Cheers

[hogbob]

bassophile...A good review IMO - and you really nail it with your remarks on the live performance compared to the sound a lot wants to hear while playing alone...

I have the rh750 but prefer my GK MB500 at home as it is more "clean". But on gigs when it is about cutting through the mix and sometimes about having enough juice to "compete" with loud drummers and crazy guitarists who play through 2 4x12 cabinets the game is quite different and thats where the RH really shines

Congrats with you new live-amp

[Duke21]

Originally Posted by hogbob

bassophile...A good review IMO - and you really nail it with your remarks on the live performance compared to the sound a lot wants to hear while playing alone...

I have the rh750 but prefer my GK MB500 at home as it is more "clean". But on gigs when it is about cutting through the mix and sometimes about having enough juice to "compete" with loud drummers and crazy guitarists who play through 2 4x12 cabinets the game is quite different and thats where the RH really shines

Congrats with you new live-amp

I must say, this thread unlike other TC threads start to show some cracks in the wall (of the TC defenders), several comments regarding that there are compromises regarding the tone, which were just perfect 1-2 threads ago. You guys almost disappoint me after all your earlier effort!

[Akami]

Originally Posted by Duke21

I must say, this thread unlike other TC threads start to show some cracks in the wall (of the TC defenders), several comments regarding that there are compromises regarding the tone, which were just perfect 1-2 threads ago. You guys almost disappoint me after all your earlier effort!

Your troll post worked - it got me to respond.

[GrowlerBox]

Originally Posted by Bassflute

I initially liked the sound, but after using them for a while, I like them less and less now that I know what's going on. I'd rather have an amp the I can control the sound of, not one that's controlling me.

Liking it or not liking it is all cool, and certainly one's opinions can change for all sorts of valid reasons, but I'm not sure this is one of them. If I'm understanding aright, you're making the sausage argument -- you liked it until you knew what went into it.

All amps have some kind of "baked-in" voice, and none offers infinitely granular control. The RH-series do compress in a manner not entirely unlike a medium-sized tube amp (for better or worse) and there is really no on-board control over that. On the other hand, it has an extremely versatile EQ section, and I happen to like the Tubetone and Spectracomp lightly used in certain (but not all) circumstances. If you don't dig the tone, coolio, but I'm not sure why an increased understanding of how it does what it does should change your opinion of how it sounds.

This has no bearing, of course, on the ethics surrounding the amp's power rating, and that is arguably a reason for not liking or wanting to support the company, but that is another (exhausted) discussion.

[Duke21]

Originally Posted by Akami

Your troll post worked - it got me to respond.

No, not a troll post. In earlier TC threads quite many defended these amps and claimed that they are very load, which is for sure the case, but still talk about compresion, distorsion or lack of clean headroom was almost a tabu. And now the OP is asking a clear question and suddenly we hear some comments such regarding the tone that we haven't heard earlier. Technically it could be very interesting if TC had installed a switch which disable the APM such thar users could obtain more clean and un compressed tone, or hit the switch in order to obtain the way the amp is working today.

[Akami]

Originally Posted by Duke21

No, not a troll post. In earlier TC threads quite many defended these amps and claimed that they are very load, which is for sure the case, but still talk about compression, distortion or lack of clean headroom was almost a tabu. And now the OP is asking a clear question and suddenly we hear some comments such regarding the tone that we haven't heard earlier. Technically it could be very interesting if TC had installed a switch which disable the APM such thar users could obtain more clean and un compressed tone, or hit the switch in order to obtain the way the amp is working today.

There was some inflammatory stuff in that one that surprised me coming from you, but anyway, I stand corrected.

I think the overall consensus comes in much the same as it does for most other amps - it's an incredible amp for some, completely inappropriate for others. And of course, everything in between.

[hogbob]

Duke21 - I am really trying to avoid pulling this thread in the direction of the issue that have been beaten to death- But you quote me in your first post and for that reason it sure looks like you are putting me in the box of TC defenders...

Well I am certainly not, BUT I would be happy to be called RH450/750/Staccato defender. BIG difference there

I think they are great amps with lots of features not seen before in a single unit. built in a quality that is second to none (at least compared to what I've seen from the competition) - AND I have zero issues in obtaining a performance that is similar or higher than any other amp I have tried with power rating matching the numbers printed on the front panels of the TC amps. But rest assured that I STRONGLY disagree with the route TC have chosen marketing these amps

What I'm saying to the OP is that I too find these Amps ideal when playing with a band. it/they do the job brilliantly - but for rehearsals alone I prefer another tone... I would probably be able to get the tone I want at home by tweaking EQ and tone-controls on my RH750. But I am lucky to have a MB500 that more or less gives me the "home" tone I want with the controls at 12 o'clock - where my RH750 gives me band-tone the same way..

From your earlier post I suspect you have not yet tried a TC amp ... I do not see any use for at switch as you suggest. Yes the amps starts to sound compressed if you REALLY crack them - this is when input is set to occasional blinks and preset volume is all the way up and Mastervolume is at 2-3 o'clock'ish ... Then it is REALLY loud (regardless if it is a 450 or 750) and IME way past the point where the rest of the band starts to shout at you. On the other hand - if you are in a REALLY loud band the compression kicks in in a very musical way - very similar to all-tube amps - just way louder. And you will never be able to crank the amps to a point where you are afraid it will blow your speakers

[4-string]

Originally Posted by Duke21

No, not a troll post. In earlier TC threads quite many defended these amps and claimed that they are very load, which is for sure the case, but still talk about compresion, distorsion or lack of clean headroom was almost a tabu. And now the OP is asking a clear question and suddenly we hear some comments such regarding the tone that we haven't heard earlier. Technically it could be very interesting if TC had installed a switch which disable the APM such thar users could obtain more clean and un compressed tone, or hit the switch in order to obtain the way the amp is working today.

I disagree. No one has ever denied that these heads have a baked in voicing, a pretty strong one, and that is something I think potential buyers should know about. The misunderstanding or disagreement is that some people seem to think this is an unwanted side-effect of the APM/power rating, while it is in fact a design goal.

I have always said that these heads are not for everyone (what is?), the voicing is there for sure. The discussions arise when someone tries to explain the voicing by "see, that's what happens when you lie and cheat".

Geez, I could have said that better, but it's early.