So what is the point of getting a nice amp these days? (FOH Tone)

Joshtruction · #1 03-14-2013, 08:07 PM

It seems like FOH always takes my signal straight from the bass against my will. It's frustrating. That made me invest in a BDDI, but even then, I am still missing the sound of my entire rig. I ask to get mic'd and they laugh at me. I am about to switch heads and the new one I am looking at has a line out. I hear the line out on it is not so great at all, and I should look into a different DI box. It has me running in circles on what gear I should get to get a decent sound FOH. I honestly would be thrilled if they would just let me place my MD421 in front of my cab and call it a day.

With my rig revamp I should end up with a vt deluxe with a couple things in the loop (Probably a delay and compressor) into a mesa 400+. How would you guys attack stubborn soundmen so I can just hand them a line level and say "go" while still capturing my amps sound?

Floyd Eye · #2 03-14-2013, 08:11 PM

I can't understand a sound guy not letting you mic your cab, especially if you have your own good mic. Unless they don't know what they're doing. I would insist. If he still refuses, tell him to shove his XLR up his *** and crank your amp up loud enough to render him useless to you. If you need a bigger rig and a trusted set of ears out front or a wireless, get one.

Worshipbass12 · #3 03-14-2013, 08:12 PM

I have the same type of problem it seems like asking to get a bass cab mic'd is appalling to foh

Floyd Eye · #4 03-14-2013, 08:16 PM

And insisting on a Di straight out of the bass? What's that about? Last time I checked, those dudes are working for you. Still, the best approach is actually to very politely explain your concerns to the sound guy, maybe even buy him a drink or slip him a $20. Sad that it has to come to that sometimes, but I guess it is what it is. My approach is that I have my own permanent sound guy.

Mr. Foxen · #5 03-14-2013, 08:17 PM

Too many musicians not knowing what they are doing, safest for sound men to assume you are one, than mess with micing then find he has nothing to work with. Get there early, set up and sound good, and talk to the guy, and if he thinks micing you is gonna give good sound to front of house, then you get miced. You probably won't. If he's micing guitar rigs, ask if your rig can have the same?

Joshtruction · #6 03-14-2013, 08:18 PM

It's the fact they are lazy and want to do the least work possible as a soundman. They might have to use their ears and twist a few knobs if you don't go DI. It is a real pain for someone that actually cares about thier tone. It's sooooo normal in this area.

zachoff · #7 03-14-2013, 08:19 PM

Tell them you play with distortion and need the mic'd tone of the speakers. Problem solved.

Floyd Eye · #8 03-14-2013, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Foxen

Too many musicians not knowing what they are doing, safest for sound men to assume you are one, than mess with micing then find he has nothing to work with. Get there early, set up and sound good, and talk to the guy, and if he thinks micing you is gonna give good sound to front of house, then you get miced. You probably won't. If he's micing guitar rigs, ask if your rig can have the same?

Yeah, but the fact is that there are equally as many crap sound guys as there are musicians who don't know what they're doing.

Any soundguy who had this attitude would get the aforementioned "Cram your XLR" treatment from me.

Joshtruction · #9 03-14-2013, 08:24 PM

in the event (which is 100% going to happen) that they want a DI signal from the 400+ and VT bass combo, what should I do? How bad is the line out on the 400+? The tone is so perfect for my playing style that I am dead set on that amp next.

Marcus Willett · #10 03-14-2013, 08:24 PM

[RANT]Put simply, there's a double standard. If you're a guitarist, it's a given you will be allowed to use electronics including a pedalboard and usually an amp to get "your sound" because...well, because it's guitar.

If you're a bass player, you will be asked/demanded/expected to forego all of that because somehow the way bass is "supposed" to sound can only be achieved when the soundman has access to a "pure" tone (apparently this means without any alteration to the signal coming from the pickups).

For purposes herein, ignore the fact that Sadowsky's and Stingrays (2 of the more popular basses out there) derive much of their signature tone from onboard electronics.*

*for some reason that has never been explained, onboard quality preamps are a good thing to have in a bass and are a strong selling point, but somehow anything outside the bass performing the exact same function(s) is bad.

Oh and don't even THINK of your rig tone as being valid. That is reserved for guitar players. Somehow, FOH will find a way to make it work with them....somehow. Just plug into your DI and shut up already.

[/RANT]

Joe Louvar · #11 03-14-2013, 08:24 PM

FWIW, I love the sound and feel of a nice bass amp on stage, but I’m older and lazy now so if there is backline provided or a good sound system I’m just as happy with IEM and no amp.

Mr. Foxen · #12 03-14-2013, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Floyd Eye

this attitude would get the aforementioned "Cram your XLR" treatment from me.

If you haven't brought your own sound guy, then that will be your attitude that is the problem. You are paid by the venue to to play the gig, engineer isn't paid to serve you, he is paid to serve the front of house.

Worshipbass12 · #13 03-14-2013, 08:28 PM

Playing worship music this is a real pain as every church has different taste as to what they usually do and most of the time foh is a guy who really has no clue what he's doing he volunteered and the church gives him a 35 channel digital board and says here you go this works the volume we really on use this slider they set everything else when they installed it

zachoff · #14 03-14-2013, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Foxen

If you haven't brought your own sound guy, then that will be your attitude that is the problem. You are paid by the venue to to play the gig, engineer isn't paid to serve you, he is paid to serve the front of house.

Round here the sound guy is sorta paid by the band. Usually the band gets a percentage of the door -$75 or so for the sound guy. Regardless, I've not been 'forced' to DI in a long time. I'd be bummed if I did these days... I guess I'm spoiled.

Floyd Eye · #15 03-14-2013, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Foxen

If you haven't brought your own sound guy, then that will be your attitude that is the problem. You are paid by the venue to to play the gig, engineer isn't paid to serve you, he is paid to serve the front of house.

Well, I do bring my own sound man. I also pretty much bring enough people to a gig that a club owner probably isn't going to be too cool with us bailing over a douchebag sound guy.

Mr. Foxen · #16 03-14-2013, 08:35 PM

Whenever I don't like one of my work colleagues I skive off for the day too. The problem is definitely with them though.

Floyd Eye · #17 03-14-2013, 08:38 PM

Though I hear a lot of the stories like the OP's, I have personally never ran into a sound guy who didn't understand that he, in fact, DOES work for us and as everyone on our end tries to be respectful from the get go, I have never had a problem getting a sound guy to work WITH us to get the sound WE want.

NYCbassist · #18 03-14-2013, 08:42 PM

I use my amp on stage and that's that. If sound man wants line out, he gets it. Usually I aim my Cabinets sideways toward me and my drummer.

basscooker · #19 03-14-2013, 08:46 PM

i had that problem, and let it go, once. the next time we played there i told the guy to take the xlr from my amp, it sounds waaaay better. when he shrugged his shoulders and ignored me, i turned both my active eq knobs up full tilt, fader to neck position and peaked out his pos di box. ya my tone was poop that night, but it was worth it to me to watch him struggle with it all night when i kept changing my settings between EVERY SINGLE SONG. we packed the house every time we played, so i wasn't concerned. and know whut? never saw him again. good times...goooood times....

Bearded Wizard · #20 03-14-2013, 08:48 PM

He's the soundman, he's not producing your album.

Main problem with mic'ing is people run those multi way cabs, port, woofer, mid, tweeter, and one mic isn't going to do a great job of capturing all that. With the appropriate cab though, it shouldn't be a problem for any decent soundman.

But that being said, always have to think whose gig it is. If you're being paid to go direct and have the soundman EQ you all awful to sound like a bass drum, then that's what you're being paid to do. But if you're the artist, and that sound simply doesn't cut it for your music (it certainly does not for mine) then that should be unacceptable and you've got the obligation to make that clear. Talk to your bandmates. When I'm not a hired gun for an artist that wants mud or a solo artist who needs my tube amp and retro style cab mic'd to get the music across, in the "band unit" context we always seek each other's opinions. You're more likely to persuade the soundman with the rest of your bandmates in on your preference.