So what's the difference in a "good amp" and a "bad amp"?

[R Baer]

A good amp is one that you can plug into and get a tone that makes you happy. A tone that inspires you to play your best. A tone that frees your creativity from the constraints of random thoughts spent thinking about your tone. A tone that is so right for you, that it lets you forget about your tone altogether and instead, allows you to focus all your attention on the expression of your music. That is a good amp. Any amp that does not let you achieve this goal, is a bad amp. What is inside this amp, what logo is on the outside, or what it cost, is irrelevant.

[Bassmec]

Originally Posted by Mr. Foxen

I still get paid to hand wire things. And know people who do so, one of whom was who taught me the basics. As far as I know most electricians working in construction wire things by hand. You can get hand wired hifi equipment (where the previously mentioned guy worked), and I've seen hand wired TVs. Amps are simple enough circuits it isn't a super high cost to get it done properly, its just that money put into advertising and endorsers makes for more sales.

In sea monkeys world, audio equipment is only made for large volume mass production so anybody looking for that last 1% can just go hang.
I think he must be at least 12 years old by the sound of it.
Not just valve technology is hand wired you know, this is an all transistor pre amp by STC.

Something about this standard of quality makes me happy and feel secure in the certain knowledge that it probably won't be improved on in version 4.52 of the app.

Here is the beautifully made multi impedance input switch, silver hand wound western input transformer set and stepped attenuators. Notice Mr Foxen how it uses inductive capacitive RF blocking instead of just a cap against a resistance.
How over the top last 1% is that then.

[Mr. Foxen]

Originally Posted by R Baer

A good amp is one that you can plug into and get a tone that makes you happy. A tone that inspires you to play your best. A tone that frees your creativity from the constraints of random thoughts spent thinking about your tone. A tone that is so right for you, that it lets you forget about your tone altogether and instead, allows you to focus all your attention on the expression of your music.

Add 'keeps on doing so indefinitely'.

[seamonkey]

Originally Posted by Mr. Foxen

I still get paid to hand wire things. And know people who do so, one of whom was who taught me the basics. As far as I know most electricians working in construction wire things by hand. You can get hand wired hifi equipment (where the previously mentioned guy worked), and I've seen hand wired TVs. Amps are simple enough circuits it isn't a super high cost to get it done properly, its just that money put into advertising and endorsers makes for more sales.

It's just a sign of the times. There's always exceptions. Hand wiring skills are not a growing skills market. Where it is, it's still cheap labor. Electricians moved from knob and tube a while ago. And they still need an inspection before they can close up the breaker box.

[oinkbanana]

easy to repair.
some amps will make a tech smile, problems are easy to diagnose, easy to repair.

[BassmanPaul]

in my mind a good amp is one that gives you what you need and a bad amp is one that does not. QED

[BassmanPaul]

Bassmec, I used to work for Standard telephones and Cables!

[Mr. Foxen]

Originally Posted by seamonkey

It's just a sign of the times. There's always exceptions. Hand wiring skills are not a growing skills market. Where it is, it's still cheap labor. Electricians moved from knob and tube a while ago. And they still need an inspection before they can close up the breaker box.

Not growing because properly made handwired stuff isn't needing replacing.

[R Baer]

Originally Posted by seamonkey

It's just a sign of the times. There's always exceptions. Hand wiring skills are not a growing skills market. Where it is, it's still cheap labor. Electricians moved from knob and tube a while ago. And they still need an inspection before they can close up the breaker box.

Not to sure about that. Many of the companies we have looked at to hand assemble our boards have FAA certification. I believe the workers with FAA certification are in the $25hr to $40hr range, which is anything but cheap labor. Boards are X-ray inspected as well as computer inspection of every component against a know golden board to look for any anomalies. There's still plenty of "hi-tech" and skill involved at the hand wired level.

[ThisBass]

Originally Posted by R Baer

A good amp is one that you can plug into and get a tone that makes you happy. A tone that inspires you to play your best. A tone that frees your creativity from the constraints of random thoughts spent thinking about your tone. A tone that is so right for you, that it lets you forget about your tone altogether and instead, allows you to focus all your attention on the expression of your music. That is a good amp. Any amp that does not let you achieve this goal, is a bad amp. What is inside this amp, what logo is on the outside, or what it cost, is irrelevant.

Are you sure you are talking about amps?
Reading your words reminds me to the sound and feeling of a Steinway&Sons Piano.

[ThisBass]

Originally Posted by Tuned

al, regardless of price.

Point-to-point wiring offers a significant advantage over printed circuits in simpler tube designs, but the more complicated the circuitry, the more PCB's make better economic and practical sense. Even though a design type could bear improvement, doesn't help if it's prohibitively costly.

I'd point out that a PCB design with same floor space like Point To Point would be of the same sound quality like Point To Point.
But PCB is basically designed to be very compact size ...

[BbbyBld]

There's still plenty of "hi-tech" and skill involved on the hand wired level.

This is true; especially for control system panels and large fire alarm systems. When you're talking power plants, water treatment, misc. systems that can't fail, they don't just let anybody build those panels.

[Bassmec]

Originally Posted by BassmanPaul

Bassmec, I used to work for Standard telephones and Cables!

Good on you! that's one of the only companies that had an idea if you bought a bit of equipment and wanted any spares for it, just in case! they would ask how old you are and if you said over thirty they would probably send you some spare bulbs for the panel meters free of charge.
That's because they assumed you would die of old age long before it really broke down.
What did you have to do for them good old boys. I bet nobody on this board knows what STC where really famous for in recording technology.
http://www.michaelgerzonphotos.org.u...ones-4038.html
Remember these before Coles took over the design because people still swear by them and still want a brand new one today.

[R Baer]

Originally Posted by ThisBass

Are you sure you are talking about amps?
Reading your words reminds me to the sound and feeling of a Steinway&Sons Piano.

Yeah, it sounds a bit philosophical, but how many times have you been onstage playing and spent the whole gig tweaking your bass and your amp trying to get the sound right? When you have the wrong amp for you, it can be a distraction. The right amp lets you forget about the amp and focus on the music.

[Mr. Foxen]

Originally Posted by ThisBass

I'd point out that a PCB design with same floor space like Point To Point would be of the same sound quality like Point To Point.
But PCB is basically designed to be very compact size ...

Either will sound as good as it it designed, specced and laid out, and wired. The being PCB or point to point doesn't figure into the sound. Just the cost, per unit, specific to a number of units.

[ThisBass]

Originally Posted by BbbyBld

This is true; especially for control system panels and large fire alarm systems. When you're talking power plants, water treatment, misc. systems that can't fail, they don't just let anybody build those panels.

May be but I would doubt the justification.

Hand wired or point to point is a sound criteria point for audio purpose but not a safety purpose.

[Mr. Foxen]

It isn't about sound, its about reliability and maintenance. Which is a safety purpose.

[ThisBass]

Originally Posted by Mr. Foxen

Either will sound as good as it it designed, specced and laid out, and wired. The being PCB or point to point doesn't figure into the sound. Just the cost, per unit, specific to a number of units.

I tried to consider high AC voltage signals and high resistive inputs on every tube stages input.
Or with other words explained: the less the power (U*I) of a signal flow vers. high voltage signal feeding, that means then there is more impact to the sound due to the lay out.
If lay out is very wrong the whole schematic probably starts to swing by itself cause the layout is garbage.
If there is more floor space for the layout itself means there is more way for stable layout, and therefore more place for "sensitive" signal feedings what increases sound quality.

In general Point To Point is considered as a sound improvement but, PCB does not lack the sound because it is PCB.
There are some designers out there who use a combination of both. It's not Point To Point and not PCP but, the best you can do for sound and service purposes.

[ThisBass]

Originally Posted by Mr. Foxen

It isn't about sound, its about reliability and maintenance. Which is a safety purpose.

I don't had any problems with PCB since 1978. In 1978 I purchased my SVT. But I have some problems with some cable leads inside. These are more then 30 years old what means the "point to point" cables go slowly down to an ending. Whereas the PCB boards for Pre and Power looks like new.

[ThisBass]

Originally Posted by R Baer

Yeah, it sounds a bit philosophical, but how many times have you been onstage playing and spent the whole gig tweaking your bass and your amp trying to get the sound right?

To me that is very very seldom.
I remember myself only one situation I had since very long time in the meanwhile.
This situation happened some weeks ago and I remember as well I wrote a post to talkbass forum discussion. I think it was to the thread about class-D vers. class A/B discussion.

Originally Posted by R Baer

When you have the wrong amp for you, it can be a distraction. The right amp lets you forget about the amp and focus on the music.

Yes that's right.
A similar situation happened to me appro one year ago.
I played with a backline gear of a colleague.
I had no time or possibilities to adjust the gear to my own fashion, So all I had was the OnBoard EQ of my bass guitar and it did not really make fun to play and was hard job to feel the notes but, the band played well and so of course it made fun even with a big lack of sound.