So what's the difference in a "good amp" and a "bad amp"?

[Mr. Foxen]

Originally Posted by ThisBass

I don't had any problems with PCB since 1978. In 1978 I purchased my SVT. But I have some problems with some cable leads inside. These are more then 30 years old what means the "point to point" cables go slowly down to an ending. Whereas the PCB boards for Pre and Power looks like new.

If there is wires, it isn't point to point. In point to point, the components go from point, to point, hence the name. If the connectors on the pcb has failed, then your amp has failed. It is down to the construction quality, not the fact there is a pcb there.

[nukes_da_bass]

A device which is engineered to perform well in live situations, sound well, produce enough volume for the situations it is built for. That is the definition of a good amp.

[ThisBass]

Originally Posted by Mr. Foxen

If there is wires, it isn't point to point. In point to point, the components go from point, to point, hence the name. If the connectors on the pcb has failed, then your amp has failed. It is down to the construction quality, not the fact there is a pcb there.

I never heard about that a wire is direct solder to the pin of a valve/tube.

By the other hand the contact area between pin and socket is out of the question ....

[BassmanPaul]

Originally Posted by Bassmec

What did you have to do for them good old boys.

I installed telephone exchanges and made them functional. This was in the good ol' days of the GPO and electro-mechanical switchgear. They even had valves in some of the equipment. LOL

[James Judson]

By the responses, I gather there's not many people here that actually work on amplifiers. Only one guy said "easier to work on". Ever try to remove an IC (takes skills).

Me??? The simple answers are "I can replace or modify components and I can ALWAYS get them to fit in a hand made point to point design". Very frustrating to see a 5watt resistor that's burned out but a 10watt resistor won't fit (easy fix unless its a PCB).

PCB's come cheaper, more sophistication, more reliable, more consistnt and sound just as good.

In the electronics world soldering is a dying art. Schools don't spend much time on it. Field Engineer is a a fancy term for "board swappers" (no soldering necessary).

Frequently a Doctor would ask me how long will it take to fix this? Valid question. My answer was always "5 minutes" but it might take me several hours to troubleshoot.

[seamonkey]

I'm happy for Amp companies who think that hand wiring is going to give them some superior sound, it won't but they can believe it if they want. And you know they will advertise it as "Hand wired" but with no audio or physical measurements, including shaker tables, to prove it makes a difference.

[will33]

This amp would be pretty much point-to-point. Still need some wires, but not too many. No tagboard or turrets or anything.

















Don't fault it for looking like it's been through a war......it has.
( 1940's military spec RCA )

[Mr. Foxen]

And that shows why point to point is horrible to work on. Turrets are lovely.

[will33]

As you can see, there are wires where needed to reach their destination, but wjere the leads on the parts reach, you just use them. No pretty parts all in a row on a board.

[ThisBass]

Originally Posted by James Judson

Very frustrating to see a 5watt resistor that's burned out but a 10watt resistor won't fit (easy fix unless its a PCB).

It takes only a couple of seconds to extend the land for 10 Watt.
Ähm, usually I extended fried 100mA Voltage regulators to 1A

[will33]

Originally Posted by Mr. Foxen

And that shows why point to point is horrible to work on. Turrets are lovely.

Yup.

I think when many people say "point to point", they think they are talking about nice hand wired amps as in your picture.

Real point to point is a real rats nest.

[ThisBass]

Originally Posted by Mr. Foxen

And that shows why point to point is horrible to work on. Turrets are lovely.

very nice

[Passinwind]

Originally Posted by ThisBass

I never heard about that a wire is direct solder to the pin of a valve/tube.

Really? I've seen it done on sub-miniature tubes a fair bit.

[fdeck]

Originally Posted by seamonkey

There is still a lot of counterfeiting going on. Two components may look the same but one may be fake. It may or may not make a difference in sound. It may only effect failure rate. The difference may never show up.

Counterfeiting has been going on as long as there are components to copy and make a profit.

If you're a manufacturer on a higher supplier picking order, you have a higher chance to get real parts.

All the routing these days is done by software long before hardware gets involved. Stupid mistakes just rarely happen. There are billions more highly complex electronic devices in use today that demand accuracy and reliability. Hand Wired is a gimmick for old style circuits that aren't easy to automate. You will never see "Hand wired" cell phones, or TV's. It's not like it's still a career to be someone who can hand wire.

During actual automated building there are many checks taking place, including x-ray of the complete board looking for hidden failures. A person being so careful may be slow and get replaced.

It's a good time to be learning electronics. You can build, test, and troubleshoot complex circuits long before committing hardware. You'll be stuck with terms like "hand-wired" for as long as someone believes the marketing that it's somehow important.

You might be surprised to learn that there is still a vast amount of electronic circuitry made without fully automated assembly and testing. Every automated step costs money, both up-front and on a per-board basis. I'll bet that a lot of bass gear falls into the "zone" where it makes economic sense to forgo things like "bed of nails" test fixturing, and to perform varying levels of manual assembly.

And speaking of counterfeiting, it also occurs on the production side, where a factory promises automated testing and assembly, but then subs out all or part of assembly to a manual operation. I've seen evidence of this, and also of extensive manual re-work, in electronic products including music gear.

A guy I know who used to work in the Fender amp factory told me: With manual assembly, mistakes will occur at random. With automated assembly, the entire batch might be bad.

It's a good time to be learning electronics, but it's also still a good time to be an old hand who understands how to make things that are practical and economical, even if they are not produced in mass quantities.

[ThisBass]

Originally Posted by Passinwind

Really? I've seen it done on sub-miniature tubes a fair bit.

Thanks.
I did not know these tubes before.
Even my old stock "Deutsche Kriegsmarine" tubes have socket pins.


But I have to tell you all, I misinterpreted "Point To Point" Sorry
Some devices of mine museum collection are of this "Point To Point" but, horrible to service.

[Steve Dallman]

I am an amp tech, and a bass player. A "good amp" is pretty subjective. It has to have sufficient power and headroom. It has to be reliable and consistent. The preamp has to be as versatile enough to meet the player's needs. Each company has a "signature" tone and feel. My GK1001RB was a "good amp" but I never really liked it's signature. The low end was tight but just didn't sound "right" to me. I now use a PF500. Reliability is an issue here, but I do love it's signature tone. I gigged with an SVT in the mid 70's to the early 80's. The PF500 tonally takes me back there.

I've got 30 year old Peavey bass heads that are still pretty good amps. My Acoustic 370 is a "good" amp, and I love it's sound. It's pretty low focused and has a very large, uncontrolled low end, compared to modern amps, but it is great fun. That Acoustic had problematic edge connectors, and mine were taken off and hard wired decades ago. Peavey's had problematic molex connectors that intermittently failed over the years.

Tube amps, whether point to point (rare), eyelet boards (old Fenders) or PCB will need maintenance over time. Think of a car. No matter how good, periodic maintenance is necessary. I've gigged for years with tube amps. I ALWAYS had a backup along. I still carry a backup.

A "good amp" need not be expensive. But to go from "good" to "great" can and will be. As you go up in quality, power and/or features, there may be a diminishing "return." I am happy with my cheap, Chinese Ampeg. I have no need at this time of a Glockenlang or Aquilar.

A good amp will have enough power, good short protection, no turn on/off transients, run quietly, have sufficient headroom, and other features will widely vary. Parts will be available when and if repair is needed. Sturdy jacks, good controls, ability to survive rough handling are all parts of a good amp.

In the 60's and early 70's, I struggled with bass amps that didn't have enough power. They were not "bad" amps...just too little power.

During decades at the bench, I didn't have all that many bass amps on the bench. Usually amps that were pushed way too hard (being underpowered) or very abused. If I could get schematics and parts, I considered them good amps. I had some old SS Gibsons, Sunns and others that were problems.

[Gaolee]

I play through what I think sounds good. If I can actually pay for it and I like the way it sounds, it is a good amp. Everything else is a bad amp. It is a highly technical opinion, flavored with sour grapes when an amp sounds great but costs more than I can pay.

[ThisBass]

Originally Posted by seamonkey

During actual automated building there are many checks taking place, including x-ray of the complete board looking for hidden failures.

That's the problem.

[two fingers]

Originally Posted by Mr. Foxen

And that shows why point to point is horrible to work on. Turrets are lovely.

In my world, that's art.

[will33]

Originally Posted by ThisBass

Thanks.
I did not know these tubes before.
Even my old stock "Deutsche Kriegsmarine" tubes have socket pins.


But I have to tell you all, I misinterpreted "Point To Point" Sorry
Some devices of mine museum collection are of this "Point To Point" but, horrible to service.

It's a very common misunderstanding Thisbass, don't worry about it.

I only put that there as an example of "point to point" so we're all talking about the same thing when we say "point to point", or "turret board", or "hand wired", or PCB.

It's the only example I have. Also an excuse to put pictures of an amp I bought just because I think it's cool.

Gutenacht mein Herr.