Speaker, Loud "Click," I'm Scared

Russell L · #1 05-02-2011, 02:07 PM

Oh dear. I hope this isn't bad. My Markbass CMD 121H combo made a loud "click" noise. EQ was flat, gain at about 1:30, master at noon, VLE at 2:00, VPF at 10:00. It did it only when I let my fingers flop back down on the strings when I was playing somewhere over the neck pickup or toward the neck. I realize that with the VPF turned up some that ther is a slight boost in the lows, and that playing the strings toward the neck accentuates that. If I played back toward the bridge it didn't do it. SO...the rest of the night I made a point not to play toward the neck, and to not let my fingers do much in the way of muffling the strings by flopping down on them. It wasn't so hard, I didn't think. I don't play slap, but it made me think, how could you if it was going to behave like that?

Now, I don't know much about the technical aspects of speakers, other than to say that I could see how much the excursion was. Oh, and it wasn't the strings hitting the pickups or frets. Actually, I turned it up a bit and tapped them lightly to assure that it wasn't that. I'm thinking that this combo just didn't want to run at that volume with any slapping going on. But, then again, it was only at around half, or just above. Is this a sign of a...uh..."sprung" speaker. (See, I don't even know how to guess at it). What makes the clicking sound? How can I tell if there's a problem?

Who KNOWS? Any comments are appreciated.

BassmanPaul · #2 05-02-2011, 02:17 PM

Your description sounds like the voice coil hitting the back plate of the driver. Is this a 1x12 combo that you were trying to gig with??

KJung · #3 05-02-2011, 02:18 PM

My guess is, from your description, you are hitting the pickup magnets with the strings when you dig in closer to the neck. This is a technique problem that many have early in the learning cycle (not sure how long you've been playing).

IMO, work on pulling through the string parallel to the body when you dig in, verus hammering the string down into the pickup.

Since slapping is typically done over the fretboard, you rarely have an issue with this with that technique (i.e., the fretboard acts as a string 'stop').

Russell L · #4 05-02-2011, 02:30 PM

Yes, it's a 112 combo, 300w. And no, it's not hitting the pickups, best I could tell (I'm a a vet player for decades). I REALLY tried to eliminate that as a possibility, looking carefully. I know what you are talking about, though. That was my fist impression. I may have to experiment some more about that, just to make damn sure. Thing is, none of my other amps have ever made that sound. Might just be too much oomph for the one 12" with the VLE up a ways. And, that is certainly the wrong place to let my fingers plop back down on the strings. But, like I said, I really wasn't playing that hard.

"Voice coil hitting the back plate of the driver," huh? Well, if that happened, would it hurt it? If not, I'll just have to watch out for it happening again. Or is it a bad sign?

KJung · #5 05-02-2011, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russell L

Yes, it's a 112 combo, 300w. And no, it's not hitting the pickups, best I could tell (I'm a a vet player for decades). I REALLY tried to eliminate that as a possibility, looking carefully. I know what you are talking about, though. That was my fist impression. I may have to experiment some more about that, just to make damn sure. Thing is, none of my other amps have ever made that sound. Might just be too much oomph for the one 12" with the VLE up a ways. And, that is certainly the wrong place to let my fingers plop back down on the strings. But, like I said, I really wasn't playing that hard.

"Voice coil hitting the back plate of the driver," huh? Well, if that happened, would it hurt it? If not, I'll just have to watch out for it happening again. Or is it a bad sign?

If you have the VPF up a bit, which adds a lot of super deep bass, and you are really digging in, you can actually cause a relatively small cab like this one to exceed its mechanical limits, which can sound like the pickup thing I was talking about.

Usually, that is more about too much deep low end at a high volume than a pure volume limitation.

Russell L · #6 05-02-2011, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KJung

If you have the VPF up a bit, which adds a lot of super deep bass, and you are really digging in, you can actually cause a relatively small cab like this one to exceed its mechanical limits, which can sound like the pickup thing I was talking about.

Usually, that is more about too much deep low end at a high volume than a pure volume limitation.

That's what I'm suspecting. But, will it be ok if I just don't let that happen again? Ya think? I just need to know if I've hurt the speaker or not. It sounded fine the rest of the night as long as I didn't let it get too deep. (I admit we were outside).

KJung · #7 05-02-2011, 02:45 PM

It should be absolutely fine.

BassmanPaul · #8 05-02-2011, 02:48 PM

If you keep hitting the drivers limits it will eventually fail. I think you should look into a second cabinet to go along with your combo. You obviously need more speaker area than you currently have. I would never even try to play a gig with a 1x12.

Russell L · #9 05-02-2011, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KJung

It should be absolutely fine.

Sigh, I'm glad to hear someone say that. Thanks.

And to KJung, I hear ya that if I keep doing that it will tear it up. Also, I'm working on a whole new set-up. Looking into a double 210 set-up with a Little Mark III. However, this little 112 combo has served well, amazingly so, even for some moderately-sized gigs. It can get very, very loud, but apparently not so deep at the same time, being a 112, after all. I was gonna add another 112 to it, but after playing a friend's 410 I fell in love with the bigger sound, but I'm gonna break it up into two 210s. Gotta stay lightweight, being an old fart. Thought about a 410, but they're too heavy.

Thanks again fellers. Anyone else got some advice?

KJung · #10 05-02-2011, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russell L

Sigh, I'm glad to hear someone say that. Thanks.

And to KJung, I hear ya that if I keep doing that it will tear it up. Also, I'm working on a whole new set-up. Looking into a double 210 set-up with a Little Mark III. However, this little 112 combo has served well, amazingly so, even for some moderately-sized gigs. It can get very, very loud, but apparently not so deep at the same time, being a 112, after all. I was gonna add another 112 to it, but after playing a friend's 410 I fell in love with the bigger sound, but I'm gonna break it up into two 210s. Gotta stay lightweight, being an old fart. Thought about a 410, but they're too heavy.

Thanks again fellers. Anyone else got some advice?

Makes sense. You might be surprised at the increased output and low end by just adding the 12" extension cab to that very nice combo.... the increase in wattage (4ohm), the increase in cone area, and the synergy of cab coupling result in surprisingly better performance in both low end (without the clank!) and absolute volume. Something to think about as an option that won't require throwing the baby out with the bathwater!

Russell L · #11 05-02-2011, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KJung

Makes sense. You might be surprised at the increased output and low end by just adding the 12" extension cab to that very nice combo.... the increase in wattage (4ohm), the increase in cone area, and the synergy of cab coupling result in surprisingly better performance in both low end (without the clank!) and absolute volume. Something to think about as an option that won't require throwing the baby out with the bathwater!

Thanks for that. That was my original plan, but now I want that dual 210 stack. But, I wish I knew just how much adding a 112 would yield, sound-wise. Maybe I can get to GC (two hours away) sometime soon while I'm debating about it all.

shaboda · #12 05-02-2011, 08:51 PM

I noticed this about markbass cabs at GC...... i play hard anyway....and made the drivers Clack at me without much effort.

Russell L · #13 05-03-2011, 05:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shaboda

I noticed this about markbass cabs at GC...... i play hard anyway....and made the drivers Clack at me without much effort.

Oh no.

Which ones did you try?

Arjank · #14 05-03-2011, 08:46 AM

I recognize that "plop" sound and the way you describe when and how it occurs. It's definitely the woofer reaching it's mechanical limits (mechanical maximum excursion). If it will hurt your speaker depends on the quality of the suspension and the spider and probably also the cone which may crease. When a speaker reaches it's maximum mechanical excursion limit and you do it often, it will "loosen" up the suspension at the inner and outer maximum. Most suspensions are made "progressive", thus increasing it's stifness when reaching the mechanical limit. This stiffness will disappear a bit when you push the driver to it's mechanical maximum excursion limit to often.
To be on the safe side, I would try to avoid it. Or use a steep highpass filter to cut off the lowest frequencies.

Russell L · #15 05-03-2011, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arjank

I recognize that "plop" sound and the way you describe when and how it occurs. It's definitely the woofer reaching it's mechanical limits (mechanical maximum excursion). If it will hurt your speaker depends on the quality of the suspension and the spider and probably also the cone which may crease. When a speaker reaches it's maximum mechanical excursion limit and you do it often, it will "loosen" up the suspension at the inner and outer maximum. Most suspensions are made "progressive", thus increasing it's stifness when reaching the mechanical limit. This stiffness will disappear a bit when you push the driver to it's mechanical maximum excursion limit to often.
To be on the safe side, I would try to avoid it. Or use a steep highpass filter to cut off the lowest frequencies.

Ok, that's good info there. And, of course, I'll be trying to avoid that happening again. Hope it hasn't already loosened up (that's what I was getting at by calling it a "sprung" speaker, even though I didn't know if that was possible). Would adding another 112 cab and hitting 500w keep either speaker from having it happen (at the same volume and settings, of course)?

628829mg · #16 05-10-2011, 09:05 PM

My LM3 shut off on 5/9/2011 about 3 times. I finally turned down the vpf knob from 12:00 to off. So I could finish our rehersal. My gain was at 12:00, master was at 9:00, using 2) 1x12 neo avatar cabs daisy chained. Im looking at GK 1001 RB or QSC GX5 and a Sansamp bdi?

will33 · #17 05-10-2011, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russell L

Thanks for that. That was my original plan, but now I want that dual 210 stack. But, I wish I knew just how much adding a 112 would yield, sound-wise. Maybe I can get to GC (two hours away) sometime soon while I'm debating about it all.

Adding the 112 ext. will buy about 6db from doubling cone area, increasing power and the "coupling effect" in the lows. That's pretty substantial. A difference of 3db is considered to be a "small but noticable" change in volume while a difference of 10db is twice as loud. You'd end up right in between there. I'd consider the ext. cab mandatory for anything louder than a restaraunt/coffeehouse type gig. Even if you don't "need" all that volume it'll save wear and tear on your gear instead of goosing the one for all it's got.

billfitzmaurice · #18 05-11-2011, 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russell L

Would adding another 112 cab and hitting 500w keep either speaker from having it happen (at the same volume and settings, of course)?

It's never about watts, it's always about total driver displacement. One twelve outdoors? Unless you're only trying to keep with with a string quartet that's just begging for trouble.