Speaker size v. Tone: I don't hear any correlation

[Kwesi]

I've wanted to make this post for a while (like over a year) but I wanted to wait until I had gotten more cabs under my belt and I think that now, I do.

I constantly see things like "The punch of a 10.", "The low-end of a 15", and "12s are a compromise" but I don't hear any relation between them. It seems like the guys who really know speakers around hear seem to agree that the is none. I've found there to be much more relation between brand/series and tone than speaker size and tone. Here are some observations that I've made:

- I've played the Eden 410XLT, 115XLT, and 210XLT. The tonal difference? Barely any. The 410 sounded somewhat bigger that the 210, and the 15 had a more pronounced midrange punch than either but it wasn't a crazy big difference.

- The Epifani UL-110 Series 1 and the Epifani PS-112 both went "deeper" than the Eden cabs.

- I own a Hartke HX410 and a 5210 (210 airhead cab with a Hartke LH500 head) combo that was converted into a cab. The 410 goes deeper but the 210 has more punch and less highs.

- I played some cab (NV or something I forget) that had a 12 and a 10. It sucked. It had no highs, no mids, and the lows were really muddy.

- I owned a Markbass 104HR for a short time. It is, without a doubt, the single deepest sounding cab I've ever played through. That includes a Hartke Pro 1800 118 cab. The Markbass 104HR had strong low mids and muted highs.

- I've also played through the Markbass 151HR, Traveler 151P, some other Markbass 15 and the CMD Jeff Berlin 151P combo and they all sounded different.

- The EA NL110s are SUPER clean, like studio monitor clean with no big frequency bumps anywhere but the Wizzy 12s are huge sounding.

I've been lucky enough to played on some sweet cabs in the short time I've been playing bass but it seems like this relationship that I see/hear bassists talking about is more a psychological thing. I can understand the sort of quasi-logic that would suggest that a larger speaker would lead to a deeper sound without fail but it doesn't seem to hold up in real life, at least to me. Earlier in the post I mentioned that I noticed more tonal similarities within a brand name than a speaker size and I stand by that (Eden, Epifani) but it is by no means concrete (Markbass, EA). The only other observation of made is that 15s seem to have the best (most appealing to me) midrange and that cabs with dedicated midranges drivers have a less naturally scooped tone, who woulda' thought .

I guess what I want to know hear is do so many really believe this? I don't mean to sound condescending or anything. What I mean is that often times, I would think that I believe something but when I run back through specific examples I find that my so called "belief" has no actual basis. This thread, for example came about by that exact method. I'm thinking about cabs I'd like to own and I find myself looking at them and trying to guess how'd they'd sound based on speaker size but when I run back through what I've tried there's nothing to suggest that size would be a good indicator. I guess the original thought was that being able pick cabs based on size would help narrow down what I'd want but it turns out I can't making the cab decision much more difficult, lol. As a consequence I've become much more partial to cabs that I have already test driven.

Yeah, just something to think about. Think out loud, I'd love to hear others opinions

[rpsands]

You are 100% right. Sound is frequency response and volume. Everything people think is magic like punch, boom, thump, grind, whatever, is frequency response -- sometimes speaker distortion too but guess what that produces? Harmonics, which are frequencies.

One more note: "Deep" is probably the most misunderstood term in bass cabinets. The vast majority of people are talking about how much upper bass boom (150hz or so) when they talk about "deep." People used to live sound think of 50hz when they think "deep" in my experience. It's a huge cultural divide.

[MonsterTruck88]

It may have been true at one time when you had a very limited variety of amp and cabinet manufacturers, that certain tones seemed to correlate to certain speaker sizes. Now, thanks to audio engineering as well as huge volume of cabinets being made, we know better.

[Let It Fall]

Im one of the VERY VERY VERY VERY FEW on the TALK BASS speaker acoustics' polital correct forum. That can't help but hear Bigger speakers sound smoother than smaller speakers. IN GENERAL <-- PEOPLE HATE THIS PART.

I dont care for ANY scientific spread sheets that state the smaller speakers can produce freq just as low or something similar because they always rule out the human element.

Were not computers, we dont hear a note and think of it in hertz and level and wave shape. We hear a SOUND. I believe that the human mind interprets lowness or smoothness differently from what science and a graph of a sound wave does.

I applaud your not going off of the spread sheets and graphs and specs, but by your ears.

BUT

Remember the human element. Just as a big speaker sounds like it can go lower than a small speaker to someone who believes it so. So can a small speaker sound deeper or lower than a larger speaker by someone who believes the newer trend of thinking.

Same as that GK stack is the best sounding rig you have ever heard because your favorite player uses it.

Or that markbass amp and cab has the most amazing tone you have ever heard.... Because your sitting in a guitarcenter and you don't OWN it.


DONT FORGET THE HUMAN ELEMENT.

[rpsands]

Yes, the human element is the one that believes marketing hype

Try a blindfold!

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by Let It Fall

DONT FORGET THE HUMAN ELEMENT.

Or the advertising hype.
Quote 1:Why do we use eight 10” speakers? Because we learned early on that 10” speakers work much more efficiently than fifteens or eighteens—and if you put eight 10” speakers together, you can move a much larger column of air. In fact, you’d need five 18” or six 15” speakers to move as much air as the SVT-810AV!
Quote 2: When only the fat, warm sound of a 15” speaker will get the job done, we highly recommend the SVT-15E.

When even Ampeg suffers from advertising schizophrenia what is the poor bass player supposed to think?

[Let It Fall]

Originally Posted by rpsands

Yes, the human element is the one that believes marketing hype

Try a blindfold!

Or the one that believes talkbass is made up of geniuses that are so smart instead of getting paid for their GOD wealth of knowledge rather sit on a forum every day.

[Kwesi]

Originally Posted by Let It Fall

Remember the human element. Just as a big speaker sounds like it can go lower than a small speaker to someone who believes it so. So can a small speaker sound deeper or lower than a larger speaker by someone who believes the newer trend of thinking.

Same as that GK stack is the best sounding rig you have ever heard because your favorite player uses it.

Or that markbass amp and cab has the most amazing tone you have ever heard.... Because your sitting in a guitarcenter and you don't OWN it.


DONT FORGET THE HUMAN ELEMENT.

I meant to include a "Of course, sound is subjective." line in there somewhere bu at some point I just assumed that it was an inherent part of amp selection anyway and need not be emphasized. But yea, a sound can be perceived differently by everyone who hears it and these are just my findings.

That said, that quoted portion seems to highlight psychological examples as opposed to examples of tonal perception. They are both part of the human element though so I see where you're coming from. One's frame of mind about a specific cab/amp might influence how they hear tone. That's what I consider a psychological element and I think at some point or another we're all guilty of it. I picked up my Markbass LMII simply because I saw Hadrien Feraud using them and I love his tone. Of course, I knew that that amp didn't guaranty me his tone but I was counting on it getting me close and it did. Despite that how I heard my own tone changed as a gravitated away from using Hadrien as a tonal reference. A perceptive example would be having two guys playing the exact same gear, in similar ways (finger placement, attack, style), blindfolded and asking them for their impressions of the tone the produced (separately as to prevent ones analysis from contaminating the other). Just being picky

[Let It Fall]

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

Or the advertising hype.
Quote 1:Why do we use eight 10” speakers? Because we learned early on that 10” speakers work much more efficiently than fifteens or eighteens—and if you put eight 10” speakers together, you can move a much larger column of air. In fact, you’d need five 18” or six 15” speakers to move as much air as the SVT-810AV!
Quote 2: When only the fat, warm sound of a 15” speaker will get the job done, we highly recommend the SVT-15E.

When even Ampeg suffers from advertising schizophrenia what is the poor bass player supposed to think?

Im sorry but I for one have NEVER seen an AD that said bigger speakers are fatter etc.

So their marketing agianst themself if their advertising 10s and 15s. How come bigger speakers are always marketing hype and smaller speakers are always "truth"

[rpsands]

Originally Posted by Let It Fall

Or the one that believes talkbass is made up of geniuses that are so smart instead of getting paid for their GOD wealth of knowledge rather sit on a forum every day.

I don't think I understand what you're saying, but I know Bill at least makes his living designing speaker cabinets

[Let It Fall]

Originally Posted by Kwesi

I meant to include a "Of course, sound is subjective." line in there somewhere bu at some point I just assumed that it was an inherent part of amp selection anyway and need not be emphasized. But yea, a sound can be perceived differently by everyone who hears it and these are just my findings.

That said, that quoted portion seems to highlight psychological examples as opposed to examples of tonal perception. They are both part of the human element though so I see where you're coming from .

Thank you!

And for the record I have only owned 10s and 12s.

Avatar 2x10
Ampeg 8x10
Ampeg 4x10
Aguiar 1x12
Aguilar 2x12
Markbass 1x12
KRK 5" Monitor [Seriously]

So im really not baised against smaller speakers.

[Kwesi]

Originally Posted by Let It Fall

Im sorry but I for one have NEVER seen an AD that said bigger speakers are fatter etc.

So their marketing agianst themself if their advertising 10s and 15s. How come bigger speakers are always marketing hype and smaller speakers are always "truth"

I, for one, have seen plenty of ads that played/preyed on the mindset that "bigger is thicker, smaller is tighter." Even if they didn't do it overtly they would imply certain things to that effect.

And on the second point I wouldn't say that it's so extreme as hype vs. truth but rather people combatting the traditional belief that you need 15s to go really deep and their voices just getting so loud that it seems like their bashing 15s when they're really just sticking up for the little guy (pun intended ).

[Kwesi]

Originally Posted by rpsands

I don't think I understand what you're saying, but I know Bill at least makes his living designing speaker cabinets

I think he's trying to say that a lot of people just take the info on TB and run with it without really putting any independent thought into it or using some comparative research. As Dan Brown would say: PDBAZ. Please Don't Be A Zombie

[rpsands]

Sounds like someone's got a case of the needstohearanacme

[rpsands]

Originally Posted by Kwesi

I think he's trying to say that a lot of people just take the info on TB and run with it without really putting any independent thought into it or using some comparative research. As Dan Brown would say: PDBAZ. Please Don't Be A Zombie

I think you're putting words that make sense in his mouth. But you make a good point.

[meatwad]

I know back when I used to think a bassist needed 15's or 18's, I discovered that multiple 10's really do sound better... to me. And this realization came without aid of any ad or salesman. It just happened one day in the life of a teenager checking different stuff out.

Why is this? I don't know, nor do I really care. I know I never felt a 15" or 18" speaker "punch" like a 10", nor carry the full range of the upper end of bass guitar.

[totallyfrozen]

Originally Posted by Kwesi

...I constantly see things like "The punch of a 10.", "The low-end of a 15", and "12s are a compromise"...

You constantly hear that? I just posted that question a few hours ago today.
Of course, I rarely dip into the Amps forums so I haven't been keeping up with the chatter that's been going on in here for the last four years. Maybe I just opened an old can of worms by asking the same silly questions for the billionth time in another thread.

[Kwesi]

Originally Posted by totallyfrozen

You constantly hear that? I just posted that question a few hours ago today.

But that that we got that out of the way...I'm going to read the rest of your post and thread because this topic interests me.

Well, maybe constantly is a bit strong. Regularly would be a better word. Glad you're enjoying the thread

For my bass style and preference, I prefer the cabinets most laymen claim are too small for the drivers - that being 2x15" drivers in a sealed cabinet (my first fave was the "small" Fender Showman 2x15, and the even better Vox "T-100" 2x15). 4x10s may have more punch, but the 2x15 sounds better everywhere in the room (to ME) than the 4x10 (which I admit I never liked).

My first "professional" bass amp was a '76 Ampeg V9 SVT and "fridge" 8x10 cab. By the time I got it to sound right on stage, I was parting hair 20 feet away, and blowing out windows in a small venue! But the Showman cab on it's side (vertically aligned pair of 15s) sounded great on stage, and in every room/venue I encountered!

Then I went searching, because others, like those on/in this forum, said my 2x15 cab sucked! 20 years later and untold hours of searching in vain, I'm right back to the sealed (infinite baffle) vertical 2x15 cab.

Bottom line is, each to their own. If it sounds good, it is good!!! I hope you find YOUR sound and enjoy the hell out of it!!

Did I mention that 2x15s in a sealed cab weigh less than a 4x10?