Stacking a 1-10" and 1-12" together ?

Doug Parent · #1 10-11-2011, 06:11 PM

Thinking about going with these cabs from a local builder here in So Cal. He makes a 1-10 and 1-12 that are the same width, and depth, hence perfectly stackable. I'm thinking the 1-10 will be great for small rehearsals, etc. The 1-12 will get me through quiet gigs. Both will stack when more SPL is required.

The question is, how will these mix together sonically. The 10 will be an Eminence Delta 10, the 12, a high xmax Eminence model from Avatar. I'm generally not a fan of mixing different driver sizes let alone different types, ceramic/neo.

I've heard an Epifani UL110 sounds great with the UL112.

will33 · #2 10-11-2011, 06:47 PM

Really no way to know without trying it. Some mix better than others but all will have some bit of interference/phasing, etc. I'd play them both and get 2 of the one you like best. They will be quite different. I have an "avatar" 12 and to my ear, they give up too much in the uppermids in exchange for being able to take a little more down low. The delta10 will be quite the opposite having good mids/low treble but not being able to take nearly as much in the lows.

In this case, one may indeed "make up for the other", or it may create a sonic mess, don't know til you try.

realbadgroove · #3 10-11-2011, 06:51 PM

I don't for see any problems, I personally would go with two 12s. I don't think that 10s offer anything that 12s don't.

Doug Parent · #4 10-11-2011, 07:00 PM

Yeah I was thinking of perhaps going with 2 Delta 12LF's but concerned about the lack of upper mids overall. Agreed, the Avatar Neo 12 is pretty woofy, but the extension is sweet.

cchorney · #5 10-11-2011, 07:03 PM

I would do two 12's. I'm not seeing the point of the 10 I guess. Its not worth running it by itself IMO. But the 12 would be, so why not get both of them as 12's. This addresses the phase cancellation issue, gives you the air mass you need for medium gigs, and gives you two cabs that can back each other up if one goes in the shop.

soulman969 · #6 10-11-2011, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cchorney

I would do two 12's. I'm not seeing the point of the 10 I guess. Its not worth running it by itself IMO. But the 12 would be, so why not get both of them as 12's. This addresses the phase cancellation issue, gives you the air mass you need for medium gigs, and gives you two cabs that can back each other up if one goes in the shop.

Agreed. The 1x10" won't be very usable by itself. The two 1X12" cabs give you the option of using one or both and eliminates phase cancellation. Personally I think you'll like the sound of the 12"s better.

will33 · #7 10-11-2011, 07:57 PM

I'd agree that a 110 may not be of much use by itself, at least outside the home but I wouldn't go generalizing about tone and size. There are 12's that have no highs and 12's that have no lows and everything in between, just like any other size speaker.

billfitzmaurice · #8 10-11-2011, 08:13 PM

Try a pair of 10s, a pair of twelves, and the mixed pair, get what sounds the best. I doubt you'll care for the Delta 10, I wouldn't use that driver in bass cabs at all, but to each their own.

will33 · #9 10-11-2011, 08:20 PM

Just remember that with the 112 in the mix, your limit will still be what the little 110 can handle in the lows, which isn't going to be much. The 12 will have a lot more to give that you won't be able to tap into without a stereo amp/poweramp. I have my delta10's in little vocal mon. wedges, they do a nice job there, they'll run out of gas pretty early in a bass cab.

R Baer · #10 10-11-2011, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Parent

Thinking about going with these cabs from a local builder here in So Cal. He makes a 1-10 and 1-12 that are the same width, and depth, hence perfectly stackable. I'm thinking the 1-10 will be great for small rehearsals, etc. The 1-12 will get me through quiet gigs. Both will stack when more SPL is required.

The question is, how will these mix together sonically. The 10 will be an Eminence Delta 10, the 12, a high xmax Eminence model from Avatar. I'm generally not a fan of mixing different driver sizes let alone different types, ceramic/neo.

I've heard an Epifani UL110 sounds great with the UL112.

Bstring uses an Epi 10/12 combination and raves about the two together. You might want to hit him up for his thoughts.

billfitzmaurice · #11 10-11-2011, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by R Baer

Bstring uses an Epi 10/12 combination and raves about the two together.

They may sound very good, but virtually any two cabs together will sound better than either alone. The question here isn't whether any two of these cabs will sound good together, it's which combination of the two will sound best. That you can only determine by listening to all three permutations, side by side.

R Baer · #12 10-11-2011, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

They may sound very good, but virtually any two cabs together will sound better than either alone. The question here isn't whether any two of these cabs will sound good together, it's which combination of the two will sound best. That you can only determine by listening to all three permutations, side by side.

+1
I think Bstring uses the Epi 110 mostly for upright and has commented that he likes the sound of it on top of his 112 (Berg or Epi, I think).

Doug Parent · #13 10-12-2011, 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

Try a pair of 10s, a pair of twelves, and the mixed pair, get what sounds the best. I doubt you'll care for the Delta 10, I wouldn't use that driver in bass cabs at all, but to each their own.

Thanks Bill and everyone else for your comments.

Oobly · #14 10-12-2011, 01:55 AM

With the 10 and 12 biamped and crossed over so the 10 handles the mids and and the 12 the lows it could sound very good. No problems with interference since they're handling different frequencies. Run them full range when used on their own. They will have quite different voicings to each other, though.

billfitzmaurice · #15 10-12-2011, 06:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oobly

With the 10 and 12 biamped and crossed over so the 10 handles the mids and and the 12 the lows it could sound very good.

Perhaps, but it's an illogical arrangement. A twelve doesn't need a ten in almost as large a cab as the twelve to add what the twelve won't provide. It only needs a six, in a cab so small that it makes no sense to have them in two separate cabs.

KJung · #16 10-12-2011, 06:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Parent

Thinking about going with these cabs from a local builder here in So Cal. He makes a 1-10 and 1-12 that are the same width, and depth, hence perfectly stackable. I'm thinking the 1-10 will be great for small rehearsals, etc. The 1-12 will get me through quiet gigs. Both will stack when more SPL is required.

The question is, how will these mix together sonically. The 10 will be an Eminence Delta 10, the 12, a high xmax Eminence model from Avatar. I'm generally not a fan of mixing different driver sizes let alone different types, ceramic/neo.

I've heard an Epifani UL110 sounds great with the UL112.

As mentioned above, no way of knowing. The Epi thing is somewhat unique IMO, since the reason they sound pretty good together is IMO and IME because each cab has a sufficient shortcoming that the other fixes (i.e., the 112UL is quite mid scooped, and the 110UL is more of a mid driver, with very little real low end). That combination kind of turns that stack into a 'poor man's 12/6 cab' in a way.

Since both cabs you are considering are the same size, I see absolutely no advantage to mixing. Choose the one that sounds the best to you, and then you will be assured that adding a second identical one will give you 'more of what you like'.

IMO... again, could sound great, but who knows.

will33 · #17 10-12-2011, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KJung

As mentioned above, no way of knowing. The Epi thing is somewhat unique IMO, since the reason they sound pretty good together is IMO and IME because each cab has a sufficient shortcoming that the other fixes (i.e., the 112UL is quite mid scooped, and the 110UL is more of a mid driver, with very little real low end). That combination kind of turns that stack into a 'poor man's 12/6 cab' in a way.

Since both cabs you are considering are the same size, I see absolutely no advantage to mixing. Choose the one that sounds the best to you, and then you will be assured that adding a second identical one will give you 'more of what you like'.

IMO... again, could sound great, but who knows.

These 2 are also voiced quite differently, and maybe complimentary but I'd be concerned about the handling limits of a single delta10. They have good mid/high response for a 10 but can't take much in the lows. The 12's I got from avatar gave up a lot of upper response in order to take a little more pounding down low. They'll give you output down there but it's pretty hard to dial in good sounding definition further up....sound less musical/more mechanical to me if that makes any sense.

tombowlus · #18 10-12-2011, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

They may sound very good, but virtually any two cabs together will sound better than either alone. The question here isn't whether any two of these cabs will sound good together, it's which combination of the two will sound best. That you can only determine by listening to all three permutations, side by side.

For a while, I owned two UL-110's and two UL-112's, and while I agree that more often than not, two identical cabs will outpeform the mixed pair, with those Epifani cabs, the UL-110/UL-112 pairing was clearly superior not only in tone but also in overall output to either of the matched pairings. I'm not sure why that would be, but for everyone who heard the comparisons, it was a very clear and obvious thing.

But again, I attribute that to a specific situation involving those two specific cabs. I would not suggest that this would be the case with all or even most cabs.

Still, give them a try and see which cab combo works the best for you.

Doug Parent · #19 10-12-2011, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

Perhaps, but it's an illogical arrangement. A twelve doesn't need a ten in almost as large a cab as the twelve to add what the twelve won't provide. It only needs a six, in a cab so small that it makes no sense to have them in two separate cabs.

This makes sense. Off topic now, but somewhat related;

Am I alone in the preference for a 8" or 10" crossed over lower when combined with a 12" or 15" (think SWR Triad) for the mids and upper midrange vs. what I hear is more "clack" from a 6" ? I think of all the three way designs I've tried and the one I still like the best was the SWR Triad.

will33 · #20 10-12-2011, 10:45 AM

The 6's generally reach higher into the upper mids/low treble than the others. More representation of frequencies you're not used to hearing a lot of in a lot of bass cabs. May just be a driver choice/implementation/tonal preference thing.

No offense but they'll also throw the slightest little flaws in playing technique out there loud and clear for everyone to hear.