Stage Monitor.

[ErikP.Bass]

I am playing in a fairly loud rock group (heavy hitting drummer and two guitarists with 4X10's and pedals) and sometimes finding it hard to hear myself on stage. I am using a single 8ohm 12" speaker and either an Eden WT-390 or a Genz Benz Shuttlemax 6.0 with a passive P or J bass. Am I doing something wring here or is a single 12" not enough? I am not playing big bars/clubs by any means, probably 50 people at a show would be the maximum. I have been debating picking up a 2X12 but think 390 or 600 watts would be overkill, not that I'd ever run my amp that high. Looking for some experienced advice.

[Nighttrain1127]

It is not only about watts. It is about speaker efficiency and How much low end you try to push. Lows eat power like crazy and some inefficient cabs will not even break a sweat with 600 watts. So information needed is Efficiency db/1w/1m should be in manufacturers specs. Also 600 watts does not mean you have to use it that is why there is a volume knob. A 2x12 would be louder just because of more surface area if they are the same efficiency rating even if the amp produced the same power as with one 12.

[ErikP.Bass]

Thanks for the input. I usually don't try to pump out thunderous lows but try to EQ the mids to hear myself. I am using a Bergantino HT112 if that helps and often times am playing with PA support.

[agedhorse]

Adding a second identical speaker may get you where you need to be, the additional power form going from 8 ohms to 4 ohms from the amp and the additional coupling of the two speakers are both going to increase your SPL and lof end extension significantly.

Can you rent or borrow a second HT112 (8 ohm) and see how that works. One advantage of 2 cabinets is that for snmaller or quieter gigs, you only need one and since you already have one getting another wouold probably come out about the same as selling what hou have to buy a 212.

[GrowlerBox]

Do you tip the cab back to point it at your head? It makes a huge difference to your ability to hear your mids and highs on stage. I use a pretty severe angle on my 112, and it works fine even on outdoor stages.

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by ErikP.Bass

two guitarists with 4X10's I am using a single 8ohm 12" speaker

Don't bring a bat'leth to a phaser fight.

For equal output a bassplayer needs at least twice the speaker complement that a guitar player does. If they're running 4x10s you need to run an 8x10.
This assumes they're cranked, of course. Nonetheless if you're the bass player you need the biggest rig on the stage, not the smallest. At the very least another identical 1x12 atop the one you have would be in order.
As for the watts: moot. Sound levels are measured in decibels, not watts. If you need more dBs you need more speakers, not more watts.

[Arjank]

am playing in a fairly loud rock group (heavy hitting drummer and two guitarists with 4X10's and pedals) and sometimes finding it hard to hear myself on stage.

Heavy hitting drummers, I played once with such a drummer............. We also had two guitar players, one with a 1x12 and one with a 2x12. Man, that was f..... loud. I needed my 4x8 a 2x10 and a power amp of 2x600watts to hear myself, not funny.

But, you could indeed add another 12"cab (the least).
But i would say (for rock), get yourself 2 efficient 15" woofers(8ohm) that give a lot of midbass (60-100hz). Run each of them in a single cab and wire them parallel, that way your amp will pump out the most power.

[lbwdog]

Ditto the above....I can't imagine playing rock against 2 4x10s and a loud drummer, with one 12" speaker. I would think that you're pushing that driver into overexcursion just to be present in the mix.

More speaker area needed!

[cableguy]

Originally Posted by agedhorse

Adding a second identical speaker may get you where you need to be, the additional power form going from 8 ohms to 4 ohms from the amp and the additional coupling of the two speakers are both going to increase your SPL and lof end extension significantly.

Can you rent or borrow a second HT112 (8 ohm) and see how that works. One advantage of 2 cabinets is that for snmaller or quieter gigs, you only need one and since you already have one getting another wouold probably come out about the same as selling what hou have to buy a 212.

What he said. Add another 12 at the very least.

[rockstarbassist]

Yeah a 112 aint' gonna cut that gig, no matter how much power. You need more speaker area. I recommend a 410 or 610, or maybe a 412.

[ErikP.Bass]

Thanks for the input everyone. I had a feeling I was asking too much of a single cabinet but I went small because I was mostly playing coffeehouse type gigs before this and it was never a problem. I am going to try to get my hands on another 12" cab and see how that works out.

Interesting comment about watts vs. dB...I never really thought about it that way. I definitely learn a lot from this place and I hope that the more experienced who facepalm'd at least got a good chuckle out of my question.

[BassmanPaul]

I find it interesting just what folk consider to be a gig-able bass amp nowadays. In my experience a single 12 constitutes a practice amp and not much more.

[will33]

+1

112's are all you need for coffehouse or "ambient background" type gigs. For larger gigs you should have enough rig to match a loudly played drum kit in volume without clipping the amp or stressing the speakers. Everybody else should be turning down to match that. I'd also say start by adding another matching 112 to your rig, that should be enough unless you have a basher of a drummer.

[GrowlerBox]

Originally Posted by BassmanPaul

I find it interesting just what folk consider to be a gig-able bass amp nowadays. In my experience a single 12 constitutes a practice amp and not much more.

Your experience is your experience -- no more, no less. Your gigs are not my gigs. I currently play in a trio with 2 guitarist-vocalists, pretty much always with PA support, and my rig (see sig) is more than adequate for me. Not for you, obviously .

[will33]

Your jack 112 = a "regular" 212.

[GrowlerBox]

Originally Posted by will33

Your jack 112 = a "regular" 212.

Perhaps, but I never need to turn it up past about a half of the apparent maximum output of the amp (which seems to happen at about 10 o'clock on the master of the RH450). Still, you're right, it's a very efficient cabinet.

[ErikP.Bass]

Those Jack cabinets are pretty interesting. Never really read much about them, not really sure I fully get it either. Once again I appreciate everyones input.

[GRAHAM SG1]

I was amazed at the difference adding a 1x15" cab to my 210 made to my sound, it is huge now and also the 210 is higher off the ground so no problem hearing myself

[derrico1]

Originally Posted by rockstarbassist

Yeah a 112 aint' gonna cut that gig, no matter how much power. You need more speaker area. I recommend a 410 or 610, or maybe a 412.

OP, if you're drawing a max of 50 people, you might want to think about whether this is a gear problem or a band management problem.

In some scenes, even small crowds at house parties and underground clubs want spine-shaking volume. For most mainstream club rock, though, if you've got two guitarists pushing half-stacks for fewer than 50 people, you're probably already too loud.

[ErikP.Bass]

Interesting point derrico1. The guitarists are definitely not pushing their amps, but sometimes the bars have the PA pretty loud too. So many factors come into play with live sound it seems. Are we too loud? Possibly. I always wear earplugs at our rehearsals, and can hear myself fine, but often do not while playing shows due to the difficulty hearing myself. Weird.