Still frustrated by inarticulate low-B

jscomposer · #1 08-09-2010, 02:05 AM

It's not the bass or the strings. Acoustically, the low-B is just as articulate as all the other strings.

I'm recording direct using a Sansamp Para Driver DI, and Q-tuner pickups. With the Empress ParaEQ pedal I can get a fairly articulate sound with the bridge pickup alone, but not so much with both pickups on or with the neck pickup alone. And it's still not as articulate as it is acoustically.

Any ideas? How do you get a powerful but articulate low-B? What are the key cut/boost frequencies?

rbonner · #2 08-09-2010, 02:20 AM

Obviously without being able to hear this... Are you sure you don't have a phasing issue with your pickups? These are non-stock units? Something not right in the wiring...?

BOB

cnltb · #3 08-09-2010, 02:21 AM

Different pickups or electronics maybe, or a proper set up, and possibly revised EQ settings? Or another amp?
Or other/new strings?
Have you tried the instrument through a couple different amps with the same problem on all of them?
generally less stuff in the signal chain might help also.
The players touch can do a lot too in uncluttering things.

Mr. Foxen · #4 08-09-2010, 02:39 AM

What amp and what cab? Usually cab is the weak point. If you have the EQ option, try pulling everything below 40hz down, see if it makes your can happier.

LowB-ing · #5 08-09-2010, 05:34 AM

Wouldn't phase issues yield a very thin tone. Sort of the opposite of mud.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rbonner

Obviously without being able to hear this... Are you sure you don't have a phasing issue with your pickups? These are non-stock units? Something not right in the wiring...?

BOB

PSPookie · #6 08-09-2010, 07:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr. Foxen

What amp and what cab? Usually cab is the weak point. If you have the EQ option, try pulling everything below 40hz down, see if it makes your can happier.

+1 the right cab can make a world of difference. The right strings can also have a big impact as well as proper pickup height adjustment.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LowB-ing

Wouldn't phase issues yield a very thin tone. Sort of the opposite of mud.

Not necessarily. That would all depend upon the frequencies at which the phase issues are happening.

billfitzmaurice · #7 08-09-2010, 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jscomposer

Any ideas? How do you get a powerful but articulate low-B?

With a cab capable of delivering it. Where the low end is concerned the speaker is almost always the weakest link.

Jim Carr · #8 08-09-2010, 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

With a cab capable of delivering it. Where the low end is concerned the speaker is almost always the weakest link.

+1

I doubt the ParaDI is the problem, either. My MTD 5er and 55-01D Skyline sing low B loud and clear with "non-dead" strings. The MTD often gets the ParaDi to make it go active. I vote speaker/cab issue.

knuckle_head · #9 08-09-2010, 08:45 AM

It is NOT the pickups.....

billfitzmaurice is right I bet - it has the be the cabinet. What are you using?

rpsands · #10 08-09-2010, 09:54 AM

As long as the cab has some decent output at 60hz (and many do) I'd be quicker to blame the bass than the cabinet.

Even with my fEarful 15/6 anything less than a 35" scale with a high gauge B string can be muddy and indistinct (for my tastes). The Starhawk (graphite neck with 35" scale) does OK with the .125 gauge B but is only barely good enough.

Impossible to say without sufficient knowledge of your setup. But I'd want to know what gauge strings and what scale your bass is as well as what cabinet you're using.

Another thing I'll add is that I've found the B-string sound to be extremely dependent on properly set pickup and string height. So it might be worth reviewing yours setup. A lot of onboard bass electronics do not sound good if the pickup is too high on the B-side, and a B with action too low can sound bad also. Again, this is just my experience, and not universal

jscomposer · #11 08-09-2010, 10:22 AM

No cab. I'm recording direct via the Sansamp Para Driver. Sorry for using the term "amp'd." I should've said preamp'd or direct instead.

So let me rephrase: how do you get an articulate sound on the low-B going direct? And just to reiterate, it's definitely not the strings (TI flats) or the bass (Jackson AG5). Acoustically, my low-B is very articulate.

I'll make a little recording later today.

rpsands · #12 08-09-2010, 10:30 AM

IMHO, flatwound strings are a poor choice for the low B. even when I was using flats, i would use a round for the B. Acoustically, at least in my experience, you can't hear the fundamental or even the first harmonic of low B very well -- so without those "muddying it up" I am sure you hear it fine acoustically

* Caveat, I haven't ever used TI jazz flats, which I understand are relatively unique

If you're recording direct and have a good monitoring setup (flat to 60hz at least) I think you want to focus on the bass setup.

A quickie solution you might want to try is high passing the signal steeply at 35hz or so (24db/octave). Sometimes getting that fundamental out of there can make it sound tighter.

knuckle_head · #13 08-09-2010, 10:45 AM

I agree with rpsands that flats won't get you the articulation that rounds will.

Are you set flat on the Para Driver? Start with zero boost or cut...

I have no way of calculating unit weight on flats, but I do know there is more harmonic content in a tighter rather than looser string, and more still in a flexible rather than stiff one.

Is your B string significantly looser-feeling than your E?

billfitzmaurice · #14 08-09-2010, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rpsands

IMHO, flatwound strings are a poor choice for the low B. even when I was using flats, i would use a round for the B.

+1. Low B is all about the harmonics, not the fundamental, and flats don't have the harmonics that rounds do.

PSPookie · #15 08-09-2010, 12:33 PM

The E-G TI flats are fantastic. The B is a lackluster flop factory. I think your problem might be the strings.

jscomposer · #16 08-09-2010, 01:14 PM

Now I'm thinking it could be the strings, too. The low B isn't as loud as the others acoustically, but it's still articulate.

Here's a clip.

First is the bass acoustically. Then with the Sansamp flat. Then with a few different EQ settings and pickups (bridge, both).

I'm trying to get a sound that's articulate but not thin.

Maybe the problem is that acoustically, I don't hear that much difference between the strings. But amplifying them (err, preamping them in my case

) exaggerates what differences there are.

jscomposer · #17 08-09-2010, 02:57 PM

Just replaced the TI flats with Rotosound flats. Now the low-B is about even with the other strings, so that's a definite improvement. The low-B can still use a little cleaning up.

I just wish bass strings weren't so damn expensive.

rpsands · #18 08-09-2010, 03:03 PM

I wouldn't worry about the acoustic sound as there's nothing you can really do with it -- it's got to go through the pickups.

Buy a single roundwound B-string. guitarcenter almost always has Ernie Ball slinky B's for quite cheap.