Suggested tweeter?

[rdk]

I'm building a 4x10 POSSIBLY a 6x10. Can you suggest a good tweeter? Preferably eminence?

[Windreaper]

ASD:1001? Won't break the bank and can be crossed over at 2.5k.

[rdk]

Nice? Know anything about what kind of caps I might wanna use with that?

[will33]

You need a 3rd order HPF, not just a cap.

[walkerci]

I cannot in good conscience recommend a tweeter for a bass rig.

A mid driver or 2, maybe.

[Windreaper]

At least a bi-polar electrolytic, preferably a good poly. However, you will have to cross over at closer to 5k if you're planning to use just the cap (1st order highpass).

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by rdk

Know anything about what kind of caps I might wanna use with that?

Asking these questions says that you should not be designing your own cab, you don't have the necessary skills. To acquire them you can spend some time, as in a few months, if not years, here:
The Speaker Building Bible - Techtalk Speaker Building, Audio, Video, and Electronics Customer Discussion Forum From Parts-Express.com

If you're in a hurry and must build your own forget about the 4x10, do a fEarful or other tested design.

[rdk]

I've been reading the suggested parts express speaker bible. I don't know if it's common for someone to read that and understand it perfectly and be able to go and build professional cabs or if I'm just not smart enough and maybe I should take up building bird houses instead. I've read A MILLION websites, forums, ect. And I still do not understand frequency charts. All I want to do at this point is learn how to build a STANDARD 4x10 with a tweeter.

[will33]

Originally Posted by rdk

I've been reading the suggested parts express speaker bible. I don't know if it's common for someone to read that and understand it perfectly and be able to go and build professional cabs or if I'm just not smart enough and maybe I should take up building bird houses instead. I've read A MILLION websites, forums, ect. And I still do not understand frequency charts. All I want to do at this point is learn how to build a STANDARD 4x10 with a tweeter.

Build it vertically or at least stagger the drivers. 4 drivers in a square is a good example of what not to do. If you've been a musician all your life and are just getting into this, it can take a bit to wrap your head around thinking in terms of frequency instead of pitch, they're related, but not the same.

[rdk]

Originally Posted by will33

Build it vertically or at least stagger the drivers. 4 drivers in a square is a good example of what not to do. If you've been a musician all your life and are just getting into this, it can take a bit to wrap your head around thinking in terms of frequency instead of pitch, they're related, but not the same.

Thanks Will. You've been a lot of help on this forum.

[will33]

Have you read through this waterfall plot thread? Bass frequency/waterfall plots: what they mean to rigs

You don't need huge output at the fundamental. My shadetree stuff sounds pretty deep and it's all falling off in the 50's. Search dispersion for vertical vs. horizontal/square driver alignment type stuff.

[T-Bird]

Hi.

As a someone who has been building (crappy) cabs on and off from about mid 80's...

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

If you're in a hurry and must build your own forget about the 4x10, do a fEarful or other tested design.

Or other being BFM . And it'd probably be my choice.

Originally Posted by rdk

All I want to do at this point is learn how to build a STANDARD 4x10 with a tweeter.

But why?

Re-inventing the proverbial wheel won't give You anything that a more advanced and heaps better design will. Build-wise and/or sound-wise. Quite the opposite.

Originally Posted by will33

Build it vertically or at least stagger the drivers. 4 drivers in a square is a good example of what not to do.

^This, but...

The problem with a vertical 4*10 is that it's easily a very awkward and prone-to-tip-over, PITA to handle cab, but still a lot better than a square 410.

Compression drivers and horns are just marginally more expensive than eqvivalent tweeters, I'd use those for more controlled upper range.

Regards
Sam

[rdk]

I want to build a 4x10 because I want to understand it. That's just where I want to start. I want to understand how to do the high pass filters and I want to understand crossovers. So far, reading isn't cutting it.

[PhiDeck]

Originally Posted by rdk

I want to build a 4x10 because I want to understand it. That's just where I want to start. I want to understand how to do the high pass filters and I want to understand crossovers. So far, reading isn't cutting it.

In a different millenium, when I obtained my BSEE, Filter Synthesis was a senior year two semester sequence which built on the analysis skills acquired during the preceding two years.

Giving up on analysis and jumping straight into synthesis seems an unusual approach. More power to you if you can pull it off.

[will33]

Originally Posted by PhiDeck

In a different millenium, when I obtained my BSEE, Filter Synthesis was a senior year two semester sequence which built on the analysis skills acquired during the preceding two years.

Giving up on analysis and jumping straight into synthesis seems an unusual approach. More power to you if you can pull it off.

Yeah, but nowdays we have things like free software and calculators. None of it negates actually possessing knowledge, it just makes it easy for folks to gain just enough knowledge to be dangerous.

rdk, I can give you some more links or try to help explain what I can when I have more time to type, think more in depth.

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by will33

Yeah, but nowdays we have things like free software and calculators.

Even with those tools, sophisticated measuring gear and 45 years of experience it takes me as much as 40 hours to get a crossover right. Without the measuring gear and the knowledge of how to use it you can't get it right, so you might as well buy an off the shelf crossover and hope for the best.

[Windreaper]

Originally Posted by rdk

I want to build a 4x10 because I want to understand it. That's just where I want to start. I want to understand how to do the high pass filters and I want to understand crossovers. So far, reading isn't cutting it.

Bill kind of explained it, but what you have to do goes along the following lines:

a) Download a copy of Speaker Workshop, it's free.

b) Download the unofficial 2.0 manual (explains most of the things you need to know, kind of a long read, though)

c) Design and build the cabinet. 4x10 is a flawed format in many ways, and the driver cost will be high. But if you want to build one go ahead.

d) Buy a measurement microphone. Behringer ECM8000 is about as cheap as they come.

e) Measure woofer and tweeter responses (the manual has guidelines for proper measurement technique iirc, just skimmed through the section) using Speaker workshop.

f) Use the network simulator to create your perfect crossover (at this point you'll get acquainted with Mr. Impedance and Mrs. Phase).

g) Build the crossover network and install it into the cabinet.

h) Measure again, pray.

i) Analyze and iterate until it is perfect, easy as pie .

EDIT: j) Get disillusioned and start thinking about using an electronic crossover. Slowly getting there myself. Nothing like trading one set of problems for another .

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by Windreaper

Bill kind of explained it, but what you have to do goes along the following lines:

a) Download a copy of Speaker Workshop, it's free.

b) Download the unofficial 2.0 manual (explains most of the things you need to know, kind of a long read, though)

c) Design and build the cabinet. 4x10 is a flawed format in many ways, and the driver cost will be high. But if you want to build one go ahead.

d) Buy a measurement microphone. Behringer ECM8000 is about as cheap as they come.

e) Measure woofer and tweeter responses (the manual has guidelines for proper measurement technique iirc, just skimmed through the section) using Speaker workshop.

f) Use the network simulator to create your perfect crossover (at this point you'll get acquainted with Mr. Impedance and Mrs. Phase).

g) Build the crossover network and install it into the cabinet.

h) Measure again, pray.

i) Analyze and iterate until it is perfect, easy as pie .

EDIT: j) Get disillusioned and start thinking about using an electronic crossover. Slowly getting there myself. Nothing like trading one set of problems for another .

You left out the impedance testing, also a necessity to test the crossover, and it's nice to have for testing the cab Fb as well. I use this:
Dayton Audio WT3 Woofer Tester 390-804
As for Speaker Workshop, it's horrid, very user unfriendly. This is what you want for testing frequency response:
Dayton Audio OmniMic Precision Measurement System 390-790

[Windreaper]

Yup, failed to explicitly mention impedance measurement, my bad (can't even use the network simulator without impedance data). I agree about Speaker Workshop, but it is more or less the cheapest option available. I mainly use it for the network simulator which is imo pretty useful, if slightly limited.

Thanks for the tip about measurement equipment. I currently use a Laptop with an RME Audio interface with said Behringer mic and it's fine for my sporadic use (I'm far from a pro speaker designer, make a cab now and then, actually a composer/sound designer by trade).

EDIT: You naturally need a measurement jig, but it is not hard to build:

http://raymondaudio.nl/files/jig.pdf