SVT-VR vs. Avalon VT737SP/Crown xti2000

[johnk_10]

since i got out my SVT-VR today and ran it thru my EL Whappo Jr., i was just amazed at how good the VR sounded thru that cab. and since i've been using my Avalon VT737SP/Crown xti2000 at my gigs lately, i thought that it was a good opportunity for me to do a direct comparison between the two thru the whappo jr, and see if i could make the Avalon replicate an SVT having them both right in front of me.



the first thing that i found out was that with the SVT's eq set flat (or i should say, with all the knobs at 12 o'clock), as compared to the Avalon set flat (eq bypassed), the SVT has ALOT (and i do mean ALOT) more low end and highs, in other words, it is very 'scooped' by comparison. fortunately, the Avalon has alot of eq, and i was able to nearly duplicate it exactly by boosting the lows and highs, albeit quite drastically.



of course, to me, the 'boost' method is the quick and dirty way, and the other way is to cut the the mids, which i was able to do too. this way actually made it sound even closer to my SVT, and required only cutting two frequencies as opposed to boosting four. the cut method also made the 'attack' and response feel alot closer to the VR.



as it turns out, the boosted settings are practically the same settings that i used on my gig last saturday night, since i had to make the Avalon sound like what i expect my bass rig to sound like on the fly (like an SVT.)

[lem8r]

SVT has low-mid scoop(approx -3dB) at 200 Hz when set flat, with regard to developers interview in Bass Gear Mag. (And my simulation of tone stack too)


(c) BGM http://www.bassgearmag.com

[johnk_10]

judging by how i had to eq the Avalon, its scooped alot more than that. if i get a chance tomorrow, i'll try to run a few pink noise and signal sweeps thru both the SVT and Avalon and check it out on my scope and/or RTA.

my ISA 430 MKII requires just about the same eq setting to replicate an SVT too.

[12bass]

Originally Posted by lem8r

SVT has low-mid scoop(approx -3dB) at 200 Hz when set flat, with regard to developers interview in Bass Gear Mag. (And my simulation of tone stack too)...

This might help explain why the VT Bass also seems to have a low-mid scoop.

[lem8r]

if i get a chance tomorrow, i'll try to run a few pink noise and signal sweeps thru both the SVT and Avalon and check it out on my scope and/or RTA.

Heh, it would be interesting

[Hoss]

This seems completely contrary to my experience with both my Skunkworks SVT and ´74 SVT.
They are both Low-Mid "Monsters" - sometimes even a little too much, when I need to turn back the 1st postion Mids a bit when the stage acoustics demand such.

Also compared to my Hiwatt DR405 Clone it turns out that the SVT indeed has ALOT more Low-mids in the 12:00 position.

John - maybe you have accidently engaged the Ultra Low?

This scoops out the mids and IMHO makes it sound really similar to an SVT-CL.

The Interview with Bill Hughes seems interesting - could you post a link to the entire interview? Thanks a lot!

[lem8r]

Originally Posted by Hoss

The Interview with Bill Hughes seems interesting - could you post a link to the entire interview? Thanks a lot!

http://www.bassgearmag.com/web/magaz...ip_pdf_1_n.php

hit 'Free access to flipbook' then go to the page 51

[T. Alan Smith]

Originally Posted by Hoss

The Interview with Bill Hughes seems interesting - could you post a link to the entire interview? Thanks a lot!

+1.

[Williamsburgjim]

Originally Posted by Hoss

This seems completely contrary to my experience with both my Skunkworks SVT and ´74 SVT.
They are both Low-Mid "Monsters" - sometimes even a little too much, when I need to turn back the 1st postion Mids a bit when the stage acoustics demand such.

Also compared to my Hiwatt DR405 Clone it turns out that the SVT indeed has ALOT more Low-mids in the 12:00 position.

John - maybe you have accidently engaged the Ultra Low?

This scoops out the mids and IMHO makes it sound really similar to an SVT-CL.

The Interview with Bill Hughes seems interesting - could you post a link to the entire interview? Thanks a lot!

+1. The article went on to read that the natural voicing of the earlier SVT's had a 200 parametric bump that in-turn, made the amp arguably sound mid-scooped. So I believe you're right Hoss.

So one point to make is if you want to cut those freq., then you would get a flatter vocing from the amp.

Jimbob

[johnk_10]

Originally Posted by Hoss

John - maybe you have accidently engaged the Ultra Low?

This scoops out the mids and IMHO makes it sound really similar to an SVT-CL.

Hi Hoss,
nope. it's definitely not in the ultra lo mode. i never run it that way as it cuts way too much mids for me.

[johnk_10]

well, after playing around with comparing both of them today, i have to say that the good 'ol SVT is really something to be reckoned with. it just has this huge, fat low end, and low mid bass combined with a TON of punch. i also love its immediacy and attack. the Avalon is no slouch, and actually can sound a little more hi-fi and a bit clearer, but it slightly lacks the girth of the SVT no matter how i set the eq. IMO, there's definitely some magic going on in the SVT and SVT-VR's. i just may have to use it with the EL whappo jr. on my next gig.

i think in a blindfold test, alot of people would have a hard time distinguishing between the two, and some might actually prefer the Avalon, but the SVT is just plug and play and the sound is just 'right there', whereas i have to tweak the eq on the Avalon quite a bit to simulate it.

BTW, i did run some RTA tests on both of them, and it confirmed my suspicions about the SVT having a bit of a bump in the low and high end.






and here's the Avalon after i eq'd it:

[svtb15]

I agree with the girth of an SVT...Big Fan of the SVT in clean mode. There is something in that amp that creates a 3D sound..

I hate to open a can of worms , of something that has been debated so many times in other threads, but what do you think the Avalon running into a non lightweight amp. Like a Crown Macrotech or Crest CA series.
I did similar experiments years ago with my crown Macro Tech1200 amp and a Crest CA 9 and im certain that those heavy lead sled amps had more girth than the lightweight SMPS amps.
Crown XTi is a nice amp but it is not an Iron transformer huge PS type thing...
Dont want to derail or as i said open a can of worms.. just a thought..

[johnk_10]

i hear you. and i do have a Urei 6500 and an old peavey CS800 that i could get out of storage and try it, but the xti2000 sounds pretty big an fat to me with the UA 6176 so i don't really know if the big old iron poweramps would make that much of a difference.

just for fun, i just tried the Avalon's output patched into the SVT's power amp in jack, and it was a little bit fatter in the low end, than the xti. then i switched back to the xti, added some 60Hz on the Avalon, and it sounded really close to the same size and girth of the SVT's tube power amp.

once both the SVT or the Avalon are cranked to gig levels, its actually pretty hard to tell the difference now.

[johnk_10]

i just tweaked the Avalon/xti2000 rig a bit more and i believe that i've absolutely nailed the SVT's tone with it! i feel really fortunate to have an SVT (or two ) around to be able to actually get my channel strips to sound like one, since without one, i would be running off of memory and just guessing.

i'll still use the SVT's when my back is up to it, but for right now the channel strip/poweramp combos have been doing the job great and the schlep is ALOT easier for me.

[mattoverb]

Really cool thread johnk. I've been reading and listening to a lot of your clips lately. I appreciate you sharing the information.

A bit off topic, I've been considering that art pro channel since it is inexpensive and your clips sound nice. I wonder how it would do in comparison to the Avalon and SVT..

[johnk_10]

thanks Matt!
the Art Pro channel is actually very nice, especially for the price, and i think i could get it to sound very close to an svt. i just have way too many 'high end' preamp/channel strips right now so i'm going to be selling mine. it has about an hour of time on it since i bought it brand new.

[tombowlus]

Originally Posted by lem8r

http://www.bassgearmag.com/web/magaz...ip_pdf_1_n.php

hit 'Free access to flipbook' then go to the page 51

If you go to page 59, in Tom Lees' technical review of a '74 SVT, you can see the "all controls at noon" versus "optimally flat" frequency response curves. Please do pay attention to the scale on that chart. The SVT is actually more "flat" that you might initially think (without considering the range on the X-axis).

[Foz]

i just tweaked the Avalon/xti2000 rig a bit more and i believe that i've absolutely nailed the SVT's tone with it!

Plz to post pic of the Avalon SVT settings.

[JimmyM]

foz, up top in the thread are pics of the settings he got by ear.

you got darn close to the svt with that avalon. i don't care what seamonkey says, you do have golden ears! i never would have thought the avalon had it in it. just never struck me as that kind of pre. the ua did, and of course the svp-cl.

i always heard my svt as sounding closer to what tom got in his tests, though, where there's a big midbass hump and a slope the rest of the way down, but i'm taking it to my gig tomorrow so now i'm going to have to see if i'm hearing it wrong. honest to god, just when i think i've finally got my ears calibrated to different frequencies, something comes along and challenges my way of thinking.

in some ways i liked it better when i was stupid

[johnk_10]

Originally Posted by Foz

Plz to post pic of the Avalon SVT settings.

Hi Foz,
here you go.
sorry for the glary pic but i had to use a flash.
the settings are:
Bass:+4.5db @ 30 Hz
Low Mid: -3db @ 265Hz (Hi-Q out)
High Mid: -5db @ 1550Hz (Hi-Q out)
Treble: +9db @ 10Khz