Swirling down the tonal black hole...

[ishouldbeking]

Ever feel like your precious tone is slipping away from you? The more you chase, the further it gets until you're really just not happy with it? I'm living it, at the moment. Not sure what's going wrong. I think I'm just one of those guys.. I'll get something new and be really excited about it, but the honeymoon wears off and I start to yearn for something that seems to be missing, and I'll try to chase after it, and it sometimes leads to interesting results, but just as often it leads me to another dead-end.

Basically I had a pretty good rig, and one that made me happy: Ashdown ABM 500 evo II into a LDS custom sealed 610, with a VT bass pedal for spice. Playing a Rick with a pick through it, the tone was pretty decent. Not blowing my socks off exactly, but it was good and solid. The issue... the cab is a ton of bricks, seems to be a little fragile (when it arrived a caster was already broken... i replaced it, but now the other one is starting to wobble), and it was too big in general to take on tour. So after lots of research and trial, I got an Orange OBC-115. Cool little cab. At first I was like "wow, there's so much girth to my tone"... but for some reason I'm just not feeling it anymore. It just seems a bit lifeless and dead, no real body or punch. The other day I played a festival gig through a GK backline rig, using my Ric and the VT Bass pedal and I couldn't believe how much treble I had on tap, and I was already preemptively rolling some off! Given that rig sounded horrible in its own right, but it got me thinking if maybe I've just got an extremely dark combination of gear or something, because my rig in comparison to that GK just felt smothered in a blanket, or something. Last practice I went to town playing with EQ settings both with and without the VT pedal, and I played my custom Precision relic a bit, but no matter what I tried, it all sounded like ass. Maybe its ear fatigue.

I'm not really looking for any advice, just voicing some tonal misery. I assume others know the feeling. I keep thinking I want to get a new cab (maybe a semi-lightweight 410), or a new head (something tubey!), but I'm scared I'll just be chasing my tail. Cursed be my self pity!

[MIJ-VI]

Get an ABG and reconnect with a more natural tone to recalibrate your tonal perception?

[ishouldbeking]

Originally Posted by MIJ-VI

Get an ABG and reconnect with a more natural tone to recalibrate your tonal perception?

sounds like fun, but I need to sort the current tonal situation since my band just keeps getting busier. got festival gigs and good support slots coming up, with a big television placement airing on october 14th, so i expect we'll have to hit the road and tour pretty soon to capitalize on the attention. don't get me wrong, i definitely am thrilled for the attention and minor success we're having, but it's putting more pressure on me to get this stuff worked out. playing a show and hating my tone just kills me.

i'm actually starting to wonder if it might be the preamp tube I just swapped in my Ashdown. the amp was giving me trouble with volume fading in and out, and with the help of TB we determined it was probably time to swap the preamp tube... threw in a JJ 12ax7 and it seemed fine, but now I'm wondering if its just something in the character of that tube compared to the Electro-harmonix that was in there before.

[ishouldbeking]

Originally Posted by MIJ-VI

Get an ABG and reconnect with a more natural tone to recalibrate your tonal perception?

hope that post didn't sound dismissive, that's actually a really cool suggestion. i'm obviously all wrapped up in my head at the moment!

[JimmyM]

you need to learn all you can about frequency slotting for bass. get an eq or a freeware eq plugin and record your bass and play with the eq over a decent set of speakers. you should also learn about how audio works because there's all sorts of stuff that screws with you on a gig because of the longer wavelengths, but there's ways to combat it.

and even so, there still will be times where you're going to have to hold your nose and play through it. in those situations, just do the best you can and put on a show, and even if the sound is off, it'll still be a good performance.

what's that? you didn't want advice? oh...sorry

[MIJ-VI]

Originally Posted by ishouldbeking

hope that post didn't sound dismissive, that's actually a really cool suggestion. i'm obviously all wrapped up in my head at the moment!

Not at all. I fully understand (and in the past have experienced) tone struggles.

It's probably best for those with current experience to chime in.

Can you rent a few different rigs to try some options at a minimal cost?

How is your bass' setup? IME a change of weather/neck relief/string height relative to the pickup's magnetic pull can throw a finely tuned setup out of whack thus impairing an instrument's dynamic range and tonal richness.

Sometimes a change of strings (perhaps a different brand or type) can change a bass & amp's feel dramatically.

.02

[MIJ-VI]

EQ bassics thread
EQ bassics thread

[JimmyM]

hey, another thought...do you tilt your orange cab back? if not, try it next time. not getting a clear shot to your ears will also screw with your head. even better, get a second orange 115 and stack them. then you get a super smooth sound. i like a good 115, but i don't like it nearly as much as i do two of them. totally worth it imho.

then get an ad200

[Sartori]

Originally Posted by ishouldbeking

hope that post didn't sound dismissive, that's actually a really cool suggestion. i'm obviously all wrapped up in my head at the moment!

Acoustic basses are fun.

Sometimes it's nice to sit around in whatever room you use for music and bash away on an acoustic. No extra stuff, just you and a bass.

Or at least I find it's a lot of fun.

[SLIV]

What's an "ABG"?

[Pilgrim]

Originally Posted by ishouldbeking

Ever feel like your precious tone is slipping away from you? The more you chase, the further it gets until you're really just not happy with it?

No, never had that problem. And the REAL problem is - you're chasing a tone. Don't be so obsessive....just set the EQ to do the best you can for each event and play. You will sound like yourself no matter what you do.

Chasing tone is a losing proposition. Play and be happy with sounding awesome.

[MIJ-VI]

Originally Posted by SLIV

What's an "ABG"?

Acoustic Bass Guitar.

[rpsands]

The Orange cab has no top end at all and the VT bass rolls everything above 5khz off IIRC (and muddies up the rest, which is what people love about it I think).

It's absolute fact that tone changes over time and from room to room as well. I go through lots of cycles where I like different tones and so forth.

It's one reason I am a huge fan of cabinets that are flat. Then I have no excuses I just use eq and effects and if needed modeling to get what I want and can't blame the cab for being unable to do something I want.

[MIJ-VI]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

you need to learn all you can about frequency slotting for bass. get an eq or a freeware eq plugin and record your bass and play with the eq over a decent set of speakers. you should also learn about how audio works because there's all sorts of stuff that screws with you on a gig because of the longer wavelengths, but there's ways to combat it.

and even so, there still will be times where you're going to have to hold your nose and play through it. in those situations, just do the best you can and put on a show, and even if the sound is off, it'll still be a good performance.

what's that? you didn't want advice? oh...sorry

From one of Phil Jones' PJB manuals:

"Often, playing in different venues will cause your bass to sound different. This is partially due to the acoustics of the hall influencing the low frequency waves that are coming from your speaker. Bass waves are large and room dimensions heavily influence them when the walls reflect the sound waves, causing them to collide by adding together or cancelling each other out. This causes some fundamental notes (the ones you feel more than hear) to ring out louder than others and some notes not to be heard at all.

Here is an indication of where fundamental bass frequencies are, showing open string's approximate frequencies and acoustic wavelength:

F# string - 24Hz - 46feet
B string - 31Hz - 36feet
E string - 41Hz - 27feet
A string - 55Hz - 20feet
D string - 73Hz - 15feet
G string - 98Hz - 11feet
C string - 130Hz - 9feet

This may give you some indication of the offending notes (frequencies) that may be booming or resonating louder or quieter than others. For example if your speakers are five feet from a wall, the open A string may sound weak. That could be because the path length of the reflected sound off the wall from your speaker is exactly corresponding to half a wavelength on the open A string causing at that particular note to cancel out."

Bottom line: try moving the cab around as the first step in combating unusually loud or dead bass notes.

[pedalguy1]

Could it be you need a new set of strings? I think we all fall into these tonal ruts from time to time. Another thing to consider is how your tone sits in the mix. You can be playing by yourself and have dialed in a great sound, only to have it fall flat when playing with everyone else. Something I do when I want tonal inspiration is to just put aside all effects that add things, and work with just the bass and amp. I think the most important thing of all though is finding a setting that works well in the band, since thats where your going to be heard.

[WingKL]

Keep trying different amps. Drag your cabs and bass to your local music store and try out various amps. You may find the one you love. Try out a tube amp, even a guitar one if you haven't done so. It may surprise you. I've heard that ashdown amp and I wasn't too impressed with the tone.

[mattq]

i guess it depends on what you feel like your tone is missing. for me sometimes it's something as simple as sheer volume. before i had my current rig i was using swr stuff and the more my sound evolved the more i felt like i was missing "power" and "warmth." i went all tube and i haven't looked back. then, it was out with the fender jazz and onto a gretsch hollowbody. chasing tone is difficult, and the sucky part is that you never know what that one missing ingredient is until you stumble upon it.

and fwiw, i've never played an ashdown i liked.

[gillento]

Originally Posted by pedalguy1

Could it be you need a new set of strings?

This takes care of "my tone sucks" phases, EVERY TIME!

[ishouldbeking]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

you need to learn all you can about frequency slotting for bass. get an eq or a freeware eq plugin and record your bass and play with the eq over a decent set of speakers. you should also learn about how audio works because there's all sorts of stuff that screws with you on a gig because of the longer wavelengths, but there's ways to combat it.

and even so, there still will be times where you're going to have to hold your nose and play through it. in those situations, just do the best you can and put on a show, and even if the sound is off, it'll still be a good performance.

what's that? you didn't want advice? oh...sorry

wow, lot's of great responses! i think i do need to spend some time learning more about EQ specifics. i know the basics, and the importance of mids, and the different functions of low and high mids, sub frequencies and that stuff, but i don't know much at all about specific frequencies. generally speaking i try to start with a flat-ish eq and go from there. typically i set my basic tone before engaging the VT, and the go-to i usually have has the ashdown with its 7 band EQ set like this:

Bass knob: about flat, anywhere from 11:45 to 12:15
ultra-low slider: cut just a hair
low-mid slider: bumped up about 2 notches
Mid knob: 12:30
high-mid slider: bumped up just a hair
ultra-high slider: flat, occasionally cut a little if i've got brand new strings or something
Treble knob: 1:30 to 2:00 to compensate for the dark cab

With the VT I use it mostly for gain, though I've found that it takes some tweaking to find a "flat" setting, as treble at noon is insanely bright. Trust me, when i'm having tonal issues the first thing I do is disengage the VT and start over. I mostly prefer it for an always on SVT-ish gain stage, rather than as a radical EQ.

[dmusic148]

The Treble knob on the VT is boost-only.

Tech21 SansAmp VT Bass – technical review