T/S parameters for vintage CTS 8x10 drivers? - Page 9

kringle77 · #**161** 11-08-2012, 03:37 PM

Alright, I got my lds 8x10 cab (thread and pics to come) last night and loaded it up. Just as I suspected, the cab sounds great but, I would probably like some more low end. I have a pair of weber 10fh drivers on the way which are supposed to have what Im looking for. If they work, then I'll get 2 more. I'll probably sell 4 of my weber 10fl's to help pay for them so, if anyone is interested, hit me up.

kringle77 · #**162** 11-08-2012, 03:39 PM

Oh yeah, the first thing I did with the cab was to only load one vertical side. Yup, thats the way to run a cab, all vertical. It reminded me of when I used to run a vertical stack of eden 2x10 xlt cabs. To bad that you lose alot of floor coupling low end doing this though. The .5 alignment switch on the cab works great and does what it's supposed to but, it's still not quite as clear as a strict vertical columb and Im pretty sure that it never will be no matter who does the crossover.

BlueLine1 · #**163** 11-08-2012, 05:30 PM

I've been watching to see how you liked the Webers. I was/am going to order 8 of them as I work only 10 miles south of them. I'm interested in your 4 if you want to sell them. How did you wire your .5 and which/who made your crossover? Thanks for all of your insight to drivers and cabinets. I'm sure there are many people reading this thread that say "Thank You" for all your wisdom shared.....
Alan

kringle77 · #**164** 11-08-2012, 07:34 PM

Pm sent. Don used an eminence 500hz lowpass filter per ralf pattersons suggestion. I like my nv610 better with the .5 alignment and I like the webers alittle better without it I think. It's nice to have the option though. Again, the 10fl's will handle alot of power but, they still aren't low end monsters. And, actually, I find them to not need anymore low end when they are cranked up a bit. But, in an 8x10, cranked anything is too much for most clubs, that may be the one thing that I would do over, is to have went with a 6x10. Im starting to think that this cab may be too much, even for me. If that ends up being true, I'll just stick with the webers and build a smaller 6x10. Or, try to carefully cut the cab down. I'd hate to do that though, Don did a great job. Isn't it a B when you get what you asked for!

JGR · #**165** 11-09-2012, 07:41 AM

Hell no, this is rock n roll. Turn it up. You can't get an 810 and then complain that it's too loud - that's the whole point! Give us pics!

kringle77 · #**166** 11-09-2012, 09:49 AM

JGR, of course, you are right. I had the nv and 8x10 in my living room last night and was thinking "damn, I've got to move one of these things to a few gigs this weekend" I tweeked my back this week so, Im wimping out alittle I guess. You know, Im really getting to the point where Im going to let my gear be what it is. No modding. I know what I like from all the experiments so, it hasn't been a wasted venture at all. I really enjoy the hunt. This new cab is not the berg nv610 and it's not a modern ampeg, it's another flavor of what I really like. A sealed cab with 10's. I was contemplating building a sealed 2x12 using 2512 drivers and Im 99% sure that I would love it because it should sound like a small NV412 but, I know that in the end I would still prefer 10's. Never let anyone tell you that the speaker size doesn't matter. It's not true. It really does have an effect on the sound and feel. Otherwise, I would have been using a properly designed, ported 2x15 for years.

Anyway, really looking forward to getting the weber 10fh drivers.

Speaking of different flavors of this cab, the ampeg 8x10 with 6 B810 drivers and 2 mod10-50's is a great combo and would sound great in my smaller, more convenient 8x10. And if all else fails, thats what would be in this cab. I just can't leave a good thing alone and have to know what is around the next corner.

rpsands · #**167** 11-09-2012, 09:55 AM

What has an effect on it is the TS parameters of the speakers dude. Seriously.

astack · #**168** 11-09-2012, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kringle77

I was contemplating building a sealed 2x12 using 2512 drivers and Im 99% sure that I would love it because it should sound like a small NV412.

I'll have one within the week

Just curious, what's the "should sound like a small NV412" based on?

Anyway, enough with words, let's see what Don's done this time

kringle77 · #**169** 11-09-2012, 10:11 AM

RP, you are a smart guy and know what you are talking about. I know just enough about this stuff to keep wondering what if I did ........? The only thing I can say is that I've spent probably a years salary on cabs in the last 10 years. Off the shelf, custom, boutique, oddball, whatever. I had a super 15 driver, ported, tuned to a "sealed" tuning sitting next to MANY different 10's sealed with the same tuning. They sounded similar but, not that similar. And, they don't feel like each other at all. I have no interest in arguing the point at all and really no longer have any interest in spending even more money to continue proving myself right. Now, if someone wants to turn me on to a cab that does, I'll pay shipping both ways to try it and then start a thread about how wrong I was.

kringle77 · #**170** 11-09-2012, 11:12 AM

astack, I base that opinion on owning an nv412 in the recent past, modelling the 2512 in a sealed cab and looking at the frequency response graph. I used an rta mic on the nv412 an it looked pretty much like the response graph for the 2512. Love to hear your opinion when you get it together.

JGR · #**171** 11-09-2012, 11:16 AM

Be careful with the ol back - I think the 810's are actually a bit easier to move with the extra height so long as you have the right transportation for it. Do you know what the current weight is on the LDS? I think the four heavy Webers will sound great - looking forward to your impressions. Give us pics!

kringle77 · #**172** 11-09-2012, 11:31 AM

Later this weekend I'll get up what I have. I don't think that I took any with the drivers loaded. The cab including everything but the drivers was an even 60lbs. 100lbs with the 10fl's. At least thats what I got from the bathroom scale. The 10fl's ended up being 5.2lbs instead of the 4.5lbs listed though, the magnet is probably what weights 4.5lbs. The only dissapointment for me was that the cab sat at Don's for 2-3 weeks finished except for the grill so, I had him send it to me and brought the grill to a workshop to finish. The height was perfect but the width was about 1/4" too wide. So, I'll have to cut it down and just use it flat with rubber stoppers underneath. I could have reliable hardware make me one I guess.

will33 · #**173** 11-09-2012, 12:12 PM

A word, strictly IMO/IME, about t/s specs, measurements, etc. Yes, they can tell you a lot. With enough different testing and measurement scenarios, they can tell you everything, but, a 1watt/1meter chart and/or a model of what's happening below 300hz doesn't tell the whole story. High power testing, distortion, breakup modes, rooms, conditions, etc. all play a part. Yeah, you could theoretically design two different systems to sound the same. They'll look the same on paper, they'll sound "similair" in person, but they'll still be different. Sometimes very noticably different. I think you might get closer if clean reproduction is the only goal, but that isn't the only goal for a lot of us. Even then, size of the sound source, number of drivers being used to add up to the same spl/response results, will still give a different sound and "feel".

Yes, with enough time, equipment, and money, one could get all that stuff to act like each other......or, you could just play the damn thing, make some educated guesses on what to change, and play it again.

So, I use specs and measurements to weed out things that obviously won't do what I want done. I use them to get me close to something that will do what I want done. After that, it's still all ears and educated guesses. And, my trial and error is always judged at gigs, where the equipment is being used in the exact types of environments it will be spending it's life in.

Probably why almost everything I've made, I consider a prototype of something that doesn't exist yet, that's probably 85-90% of the way to where I want it to be. That last bit being pretty much invisible in paper.

It's fun.

And yeah, .... Pics, man.

astack · #**174** 11-09-2012, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kringle77

astack, I base that opinion on owning an nv412 in the recent past, modelling the 2512 in a sealed cab and looking at the frequency response graph. I used an rta mic on the nv412 an it looked pretty much like the response graph for the 2512. Love to hear your opinion when you get it together.

Nice. Sounds legit then. Having never heard an NV412 I couldn't say one way or the other. Or maybe that means I should go ahead and return all the other 12's and just stick to the DL's ... but yeah I think you know how that would end. "What if...?"

Quote:

Originally Posted by will33

A word, strictly IMO/IME, about t/s specs, measurements, etc. Yes, they can tell you a lot. With enough different testing and measurement scenarios, they can tell you everything, but, a 1watt/1meter chart and/or a model of what's happening below 300hz doesn't tell the whole story. High power testing, distortion, breakup modes, rooms, conditions, etc. all play a part. Yeah, you could theoretically design two different systems to sound the same. They'll look the same on paper, they'll sound "similair" in person, but they'll still be different. Sometimes very noticably different. I think you might get closer if clean reproduction is the only goal, but that isn't the only goal for a lot of us. Even then, size of the sound source, number of drivers being used to add up to the same spl/response results, will still give a different sound and "feel".

Yes, with enough time, equipment, and money, one could get all that stuff to act like each other......or, you could just play the damn thing, make some educated guesses on what to change, and play it again.

So, I use specs and measurements to weed out things that obviously won't do what I want done. I use them to get me close to something that will do what I want done. After that, it's still all ears and educated guesses. And, my trial and error is always judged at gigs, where the equipment is being used in the exact types of environments it will be spending it's life in.

Probably why almost everything I've made, I consider a prototype of something that doesn't exist yet, that's probably 85-90% of the way to where I want it to be. That last bit being pretty much invisible in paper.

It's fun.

And yeah, .... Pics, man.

Great perspective, as usual. Big +1.

kringle77 · #**175** 11-09-2012, 01:37 PM

Well said Will.

rpsands · #**176** 11-09-2012, 02:29 PM

Look at any driver that you think feels different. It will have differences in Q, Fs, Le, Vas, cone / dustcap design/materials, and more.

If you find a 10 and a 15 that have very, very similar characteristics, they will sound more similar than two 10s with vastly different characteristics.

You have to look at the FR charts too usually but I know guys with great engineering knowledge can make really strong projections of midrange performance based off of Fs/Q/Le/etc.

Similarities you're noticing in 10s probably has to do with mid/high end characteristics in common of things with light cones (Higher Fs) and higher Q, and the enclosure being similar.

I'd also guess that most of the 15s you've heard that "Feel" different had far different enclosure alignments relative to their characteristics than the 10s, but I dunno for sure (e.g. different amounts of stuffing, size, dimensions, etc.).

will33 · #**177** 11-09-2012, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rpsands

Look at any driver that you think feels different. It will have differences in Q, Fs, Le, Vas, cone / dustcap design/materials, and more.

If you find a 10 and a 15 that have very, very similar characteristics, they will sound more similar than two 10s with vastly different characteristics.

You have to look at the FR charts too usually but I know guys with great engineering knowledge can make really strong projections of midrange performance based off of Fs/Q/Le/etc.

Similarities you're noticing in 10s probably has to do with mid/high end characteristics in common of things with light cones (Higher Fs) and higher Q, and the enclosure being similar.

I'd also guess that most of the 15s you've heard that "Feel" different had far different enclosure alignments relative to their characteristics than the 10s, but I dunno for sure (e.g. different amounts of stuffing, size, dimensions, etc.).

All very true.

Basically saying there's a good bit of the tone, "nuance" and "feel" type stuff that isn't going to present itself to us in basic models and measurements, at least not the stuff commonly available to a lot of diyers. Some of the high power testing stuff is going to result in destroyed drivers a lot of us can't afford.

You could show all that stuff in measurements with enough expense, but a lot of us just rely on our ears to finalize things. Pros do too.

kringle77 · #**178** 11-09-2012, 04:19 PM

RP, I hope that you did not take offense from my comment and realize that I agree with most of what you say. Sometimes I just need to accept that something works for me and not have to know why. When it comes down to it, do you want to be a player or an engineer? Thats what I should be asking myself sometimes. My overall favorite sound in my entire playing career was a pair of vertically stacked eden 2x10's, and from the exhaustive research I've done and people on this forum who I've learned from, I now understand why. So, I guess it hasn't all been a waste. I just need technology to catch up so that I can get that tone in and 8x10 volume in a 30lb 2x10 cab.

On a completely unrelated note, if I was always going to the board, I would probably be investing in that Kempler modelling rig and model my favorite rigs that usually stay in the basement due to size/weight. That thing sounds pretty realistic.

JGR · #**179** 11-09-2012, 04:39 PM

The Axe FX II has the ability to do that as well plus all the normal features, so a much better buy if you go down that road.

kringle77 · #**180** 11-09-2012, 05:07 PM

JGR, I have listened to both units on-line and think that the Kempler sounds even more realistic and people who have owned them both say the kempler feels real. Keep in mind that nobody has really used these as a preamp for their live rigs but, to the board and for recording. If you watch the videos where they model a rig and then compare the two side by side, there really isn't any difference. As a live rig, I'd be skeptical though. Cool stuff. You just know that in 10 years there will be complete small rigs that can get you any tone you can think of and do it will realisitic sound. It's getting closer all the time.