Thiele/Small parameters for Hartke/Eden 10s?

Rafael · #1 05-11-2010, 10:29 PM

I've been looking around a bit and haven't been able to find any data on the Hartke and Eden 10" drivers. I managed to acquire four of the Edens and two Hartkes w/paper cones and though I'm starting work on a modified ZacLITE 2x10" composite cab I'd love to fool around with these other tens.

Besides the obvious of running the tests and coming up with the data myself, does anyone know of an online resource with this info? Thanks in advance....

billfitzmaurice · #2 05-12-2010, 06:23 AM

The only way you'll get specs on them is if you test them yourself, or find someone else who has. Manufacturers never divulge driver specs.

Rafael · #3 05-12-2010, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

The only way you'll get specs on them is if you test them yourself, or find someone else who has. Manufacturers never divulge driver specs.

Soooo......anybody done this yet? Or have a suggestion for an easy to use software option to test them? Thanks!

T-Bird · #4 05-12-2010, 12:29 PM

Hi.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rafael

Soooo......anybody done this yet? Or have a suggestion for an easy to use software option to test them? Thanks!

Since my quest of Hartke XL and TP 10" driver T/S specs was fruitless I was really close to doing the tests I found here ( a TBer has 'em on his site, unfortunately I don't remember who it was

), but, there's really no point.
Unless You have a pallet-load of unknown speakers you got for peanuts, it will always be more feasible to use non-OEM drivers that have the T/S specs readily available.

IMHO as always of course.

Regards
Sam

billfitzmaurice · #5 05-12-2010, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rafael

have a suggestion for an easy to use software option to test them?

There are none, special hardware is required, and shy of spending kilobucks on a Klippel laser analysis rig you can't measure xmax, shy of destroying a driver to measure the coil length and plate thickness.
BTW, there's nothing the least bit special about OEM drivers. There are only two reasons why they won't give out specs: so you can't buy compatible replacements from a different source, and so you can't calculate their actual performance, which might reveal their claimed performance as being, shall we say, 'optimistic'.

Rafael · #6 05-12-2010, 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

BTW, there's nothing the least bit special about OEM drivers. There are only two reasons why they won't give out specs: so you can't buy compatible replacements from a different source, and so you can't calculate their actual performance, which might reveal their claimed performance as being, shall we say, 'optimistic'.

Unfortunately that also means I can't blindly rely on duplicating an OEM cabinet because likewise cabinets are designed more often for aesthetics than for acoustic accuracy...so if I wanted for example to build a 2x10 out of two of the Edens I wouldn't just build half an Eden 4x10 cab and expect top performance...but I wouldn't expect horrible performance either...

But a technical question: Not knowing xmax only limits my ability to estimate maximum SPL/freq out of a cab/driver combo, no? Wouldn't the common TS parameters for judging frequency response etc be some I could get w/ common software solution, at least an approximation, with fine tuning on ports to clean up the mess? THanks...

billfitzmaurice · #7 05-13-2010, 06:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rafael

Unfortunately that also means I can't blindly rely on duplicating an OEM cabinet because likewise cabinets are designed more often for aesthetics than for acoustic accuracy...so if I wanted for example to build a 2x10 out of two of the Edens I wouldn't just build half an Eden 4x10 cab and expect top performance...but I wouldn't expect horrible performance either...

But a technical question: Not knowing xmax only limits my ability to estimate maximum SPL/freq out of a cab/driver combo, no? Wouldn't the common TS parameters for judging frequency response etc be some I could get w/ common software solution, at least an approximation, with fine tuning on ports to clean up the mess? THanks...

Hardware is required to calculate even the most basic specs, such as Fs.

Rick Auricchio · #8 05-13-2010, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rafael

=..so if I wanted for example to build a 2x10 out of two of the Edens I wouldn't just build half an Eden 4x10 cab and expect top performance...but I wouldn't expect horrible performance either...

True, but you would do better to duplicate one of Eden's many 2x10 cabs instead. But which one? The D210T, 210XLT, 210XST, or the Metro 210 combo cab? With several different 210 configurations, there could be a couple of variations of Eden's 10" drivers.

Rafael · #9 05-13-2010, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick Auricchio

True, but you would do better to duplicate one of Eden's many 2x10 cabs instead. But which one? The D210T, 210XLT, 210XST, or the Metro 210 combo cab? With several different 210 configurations, there could be a couple of variations of Eden's 10" drivers.

Yeah, I see what you mean, and given that my drivers are EC-1060XLs I guess the D-210XLT is the closest Eden design for them.

OldogNewTrick · #10 05-13-2010, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

There are none, special hardware is required, and shy of spending kilobucks on a Klippel laser analysis rig you can't measure xmax, shy of destroying a driver to measure the coil length and plate thickness.

Bill, so this won't do ?
They have a handy Excel spreadsheet to guide you through the process....

hmmmm....

Rick Auricchio · #11 05-13-2010, 05:03 PM

That web page still doesn't help you find xmax.

muddycreek · #12 05-13-2010, 05:43 PM

If you have a reasonable amount of power on tap, just take all four edens and stick them in a good sized sealed box. Nice and quick and boinky sounding.

billfitzmaurice · #13 05-13-2010, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldogNewTrick

Bill, so this won't do ?
They have a handy Excel spreadsheet to guide you through the process....

hmmmm....

That's not software.

will33 · #14 05-13-2010, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rafael

Yeah, I see what you mean, and given that my drivers are EC-1060XLs I guess the D-210XLT is the closest Eden design for them.

Your best bet for them to sound like an Eden would probably be to clone a 210XLT. I've done sort of the same thing with older 16ohm Eden model 1032 10" drivers. They came in the Eden/Nemesis 410T cabs from before they came out with the XLT's so I sort of but not exactly cloned a Nemesis 210. Box dimensions can be easily figured just from exterior dimensions listed on websites figuring 3/4" material, it's the tuning that's hard to find sometimes. But...that box is now in my pile of stuff I don't use and has hardware robbed from it, etc. The speakers now reside in a larger 2.9 cu.ft. 210 that I'd originally designed for BP102's or a bigbox deltalite system that I never finished. So the result is a couple of old eden speakers in a box that is almost the polar opposite of what they were designed for but it sounds smooth and I use it solo for small bar gigs. The signature Eden low-mid hump is gone, much more balanced from the midbass up to what my ear considers upper but not highmids for a bass guitar. Fits the meaty portion of a P-bass nicely and gets the job done. I don't know what the displacement limit is but I suspect it's fairly low. It gets the job done and makes a nice small rig that doesn't get boomy in a room that has too much concrete/steel/plaster and not enough people.

FWIW, I tuned the cabinet with my eyes, as in, controlling cone movement on the low notes, came out to somewhere around 45hz. If could actually find specs and modeled it, I probably wouldn't like what the graph looks like by like I say, it does a good job in the context it's being used in. I don't expect to "shake the foundation" with a 210. In the Eden clone cab, it sounded louder due to the small cab/lowmid hump thing but it also wasn't as clean and the cones looked like they were moving way to far to depend on it long term but then, I'm not certain I cloned the right cab either.

Long and short of it is....build a replica of a 210XLT and that'd be about the best you could expect out of them. Take a pocket tape measure with you to someplace that sells Eden cabs and measure the dimensions of the port....or if that is unreasonable, I'm sure somebody on TB could measure theirs for you. Mine was and older version that had a round tube port sandwiched in with the 10's, not the shelf port like the XLT's.

Munjibunga · #15 05-13-2010, 09:02 PM

Just talking about it is getting tedious. You could have held a bake sale and bought a D-210XLT by now.

will33 · #16 05-13-2010, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Munjibunga

Just talking about it is getting tedious. You could have held a bake sale and bought a D-210XLT by now.

That would be too easy, come on man, we have to parse this out to the Nth degree so we know what we're doing, even though nobody else does.

Rafael · #17 05-13-2010, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by will33

Your best bet for them to sound like an Eden would probably be to clone a 210XLT.

%<SNIP!

Long and short of it is....build a replica of a 210XLT and that'd be about the best you could expect out of them. Take a pocket tape measure with you to someplace that sells Eden cabs and measure the dimensions of the port....or if that is unreasonable, I'm sure somebody on TB could measure theirs for you. Mine was and older version that had a round tube port sandwiched in with the 10's, not the shelf port like the XLT's.

Well, I'm not a big fan of shelf ports myself: Too hard to tune....plus I'd be using round ports on my ZacLITE clone and I'm going for consistency, you know...thanks for your thoughts.

will33 · #18 05-13-2010, 10:05 PM

I've banged my head enough on the wall with shelf ports as well. Tubes/pipes for me but when building an existing design there's really no error involved. If you don't like what you come up with, then you don't like Edens either....Maybe it would sound better if you but an Eden sticker on it.