Tight bass or loose bass. What's YOUR take?

[Quickie]

I am going to be buying another rig soon. I am an Ampeg fan but with so many other amps out their (Eden looks real good) I am looking for Clean, Tight and Powerful low end. What's your experience with this type of tone?

[JimmyM]

Get a head with some power and a fairly big cab rig.

[Russell L]

I have learned that it's not the super lows that cut through, but the low mids and mids. While a good low end is something we all want and need, just don't let it be your top priority to the point of overlooking the other frequencies. I have found myself playing with my eq flat more than any other setting (except for rolling off some high mids to account for playing with my fingernails).

[Quickie]

Originally Posted by Russell L

I have learned that it's not the super lows that cut through, but the low mids and mids. While a good low end is something we all want and need, just don't let it be your top priority to the point of overlooking the other frequencies. I have found myself playing with my eq flat more than any other setting (except for rolling off some high mids to account for playing with my fingernails).

I'll clarify my style and tone. Scooped mids. Lots of top end, and a huge bottom end. I used to and will again play Rics (my drug of choice) but will be getting a Sting Ray, maple neck next month.

I have owned a classic svt 810. To middy and thick. I prefer the horn and ported cabs for the extended low end. I play a four string. The ported cabs, in my experience when used with the svt head sounded boomy...not tight. When using a S/S head, it tightened up significantly.

[Sundogue]

Originally Posted by Quickie

I'll clarify my style and tone. Scooped mids. Lots of top end, and a huge bottom end. I used to and will again play Rics (my drug of choice) but will be getting a Sting Ray, maple neck next month.

I have owned a classic svt 810. To middy and thick. I prefer the horn and ported cabs for the extended low end. I play a four string. The ported cabs, in my experience when used with the svt head sounded boomy...not tight. When using a S/S head, it tightened up significantly.

Boominess comes from around 125Hz, which is right in the area where most cabs produce a bump because they don't handle sub 100Hz lows that well. They produce strong upper bass/lo-mids (from 100Hz on up to about 250Hz).

I'd suggest a fEARful, or if you don't/can't build one yourself, possibly an Avatar TB153. Very strong low end with a lot of clarity throughout the frequency range.

Another suggestion is to use a head with more EQ options and also use compression, which can tighten up the sound more.

[Quickie]

Originally Posted by Sundogue

Boominess comes from around 125Hz, which is right in the area where most cabs produce a bump because they don't handle sub 100Hz lows that well. They produce strong upper bass/lo-mids (from 100Hz on up to about 250Hz).

I'd suggest a fEARful, or if you don't/can't build one yourself, possibly an Avatar TB153. Very strong low end with a lot of clarity throughout the frequency range.

Another suggestion is to use a head with more EQ options and also use compression, which can tighten up the sound more.

Which is one of the attractions to the Eden WT800 I am researching.

[MarTONEbass]

I love my Berg AE212, but the bass response depends on the head I use with it. I had a Markbass SD800 which was nice, but not tight enough in the lows. I just picked up a Genz Shuttlemax 9.2 and I'm in heaven. Gobs of tight, rich bass through that cab.

The 2 bands of parametric mids really helps, but the overall voicing is important as well, the Markbass was just too wide and low for the AE. No compression needed with this setup.

[Rick Auricchio]

Originally Posted by Quickie

Scooped mids. Lots of top end, and a huge bottom end.

The huge bottom end can be a huge pain in most rooms. It can really work against you. For example, band members will scream that you're way too loud, because they're hearing a buildup caused by the floor, walls, and ceiling. So you turn down, and now you're not projecting to the audience. Turn down the bass EQ and you're fine.

Scooping mids often prevents the bass from cutting through in a band situation, unless you're amplified much louder than anyone else. But that only works for people like Stanley Clarke.

And once you have PA support, then you have very little control over the tone heard by the audience: they're hearing the PA, not your stage amp.

[Russell L]

Originally Posted by Rick Auricchio

The huge bottom end can be a huge pain in most rooms. It can really work against you. For example, band members will scream that you're way too loud, because they're hearing a buildup caused by the floor, walls, and ceiling. So you turn down, and now you're not projecting to the audience. Turn down the bass EQ and you're fine.

Scooping mids often prevents the bass from cutting through in a band situation, unless you're amplified much louder than anyone else. But that only works for people like Stanley Clarke.

And once you have PA support, then you have very little control over the tone heard by the audience: they're hearing the PA, not your stage amp.

^^^That's what I was getting at.

I love the sound of scooped mids when I play solo, but it just doesn't work for me in an ensemble.

[Sundogue]

Originally Posted by Rick Auricchio

The huge bottom end can be a huge pain in most rooms. It can really work against you. For example, band members will scream that you're way too loud, because they're hearing a buildup caused by the floor, walls, and ceiling. So you turn down, and now you're not projecting to the audience. Turn down the bass EQ and you're fine.

Scooping mids often prevents the bass from cutting through in a band situation, unless you're amplified much louder than anyone else. But that only works for people like Stanley Clarke.

And once you have PA support, then you have very little control over the tone heard by the audience: they're hearing the PA, not your stage amp.

Huge bottom end, in the sub 100Hz territory, doesn't cause much, if any problems at all.

Most of those issues lie between 100 and 125Hz. The problem is, most commercial cabs can't produce sub 100Hz worth anything, but instead (by design) enhance 100-125Hz. So some players boost the lows even more, which the cab can't produce, so it pushes up the very frequencies that are problematic.

Scooped mids in and of themselves don't cause a lack of volume on their own, and it certainly depends on the room as well as the type of music played and which (and how many) other instruments are involved.

In my 3 piece blues band I can get away with a scooped EQ with no problem at all. In my 5 piece classic rock band, no way...I need the mids boosted more. In both cases my low end (sub 100Hz) is boosted rather significantly with no ill effect, either in the rooms or with other players.

In fact it has the opposite effect. Musicians I play with really dig being able to hear and feel the bass like the haven't before without muddying up the stage sound at all. Of course I have a rig capable of producing deep lows with great clarity. I can pretty much take 125Hz completely out of my rig and the low end is still strong. Try doing that with most commercial cabs.

[staindbass]

you stated you want clean, tight powerful low end ? its true what sundouge said. i can play full volume with my fingers and have a conversation 10 feet from my amp. ( not so much with t pick though). "clean tight powerful low end" is an opinion, so its hard to nail down what you are looking for. in my opinion, commercially produced bass amps dont have any low end.(i dont care what the graph on the website says, listen to it, not the specs) low end to me is 28-63 hz. to me, if its heard, its not low end. 63hz and up is where i just start to hear it. that seems to be where most bass amps start in actual settings and usage. ever notice how a movie theatre sound system seems to go deeper than almost all home stereos? thats what my rig sounds like compared to normal bass amps. i gotta have it. i could play without it, but its not as fun. its not as big. before buying, see if you can rent a 1x18 or 2x18 sub from sound company in the phone book for a day. plop one of your other rigs speakers on top for mids and highs. try it out. better to spend a few bucks to rent and see rather than buying another rig and having it only be a little better than what you had. my rig is in my avatar, 18's and horns. to me it gives clear powerfull low end . johnny a. staind

[will33]

Point of interest johnny. The tech at a little home studio we used here to do a demo once used you guys as a good example of that style of mixing. Your record was playing pretty loud yet we could all have normal level conversation sitting around a table in the same (smallish) room. The voices and the music weren't in direct competition.

Contrast that to your local nightclub where people are screaming in each others ears.

Of course some people come to get their ears blasted.

With our little band I usually shoot for somewhere inbetween...full/somewhat loud on the dance floor yet you can still have a normal conversation in the back of the room.

[Son of Bovril]

@staindbass: no disrespect because I'm sure that is the sound you like and are going after, but running a rig of only 18's and tweeters must give you a pretty big inherent mid scoop to your tone? Ironically, roughly right in the human voice range area of the spectrum, so it's not surprising that you can talk in front of your rig while playing really loudly...

Also IMO/E playing with detuned guitarists - like in A or B tends to start interfering with the usual "mid" bass spectrum so I'm not surprised you are running your rig that way

Ps. out of interest how much power are you running to get good volume out of that rig?

[staindbass]

son of bovril. yes you are correct, but those 18's go very high into the mids, higher than most people think. on the latest record the producer used the treble from an ampeg 2x10, and the mids and lows from the 18's. i have a slightly scooped sound, instead of scooping the eq (and adding artifacts and junk as eq always does) i changed the crossover to the tweeters so it sounds the way i like it right out of the box. the eq on the amp is flat. im not sure how much power, im guessing a thousand, the amp will do 2 thousand. i need that much because there are no walls like a club for reinforcement of the low end. no disrespect taken, i like questions. honestly the rig wouldent work for a motown sound because of the scoop built in. i have alot of experience with low end, so i had to chime in.

[Son of Bovril]

^^ Very interesting ^^ Thanx

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by Sundogue

Huge bottom end, in the sub 100Hz territory, doesn't cause much, if any problems at all.

Most of those issues lie between 100 and 125Hz. The problem is, most commercial cabs can't produce sub 100Hz worth anything, but instead (by design) enhance 100-125Hz. So some players boost the lows even more, which the cab can't produce, so it pushes up the very frequencies that are problematic.

Exactly. Boom does not come from the 40-80Hz fundamental octave, it comes from the 80-160Hz second harmonic octave. Most cabs accentuate response in the 80-160Hz octave, because they're too small for the drivers contained to run lower than that with authority. In a non-resonant room they're OK, but in a boomy room they're uncontrollable unless you have a very good EQ section that allows notching out that 80-160Hz octave without losing the 40-80Hz content. Otherwise you end up either boomy or thin, with no other options.