trace elliot 1210 with behringer cab

Martin-nl · #1 03-15-2011, 01:37 PM

Another Ohm question.... (after the search function, reading manuals, using ohm excellsheets etc)

I have no clue how much ohm my tracecombo is rated for. But it is a 4x10 combo. I have from a previous setup a behringer ba410 rated at 4ohm. Stupidly I plugged this one also in on my TE. OOOOH it sounds so good and loud all went good...But then I remembered something.... Ohm...!!!! So I stopped playing, no fuses broken, everything is okee. still I wonder:

How much ohm is the TE? And can I put as an extra the BA410? If not, can I rewire the BA410?

Downunderwonder · #2 03-15-2011, 08:07 PM

Good catch, it'll probably be ok.

What model is your combo? Usually if it has an extension cab outlet at the back of the amp it will be good for another 8 ohm cab. That is all.

You can't rewire the 4 ohm B'er to anything useful in any case.

Martin-nl · #3 03-16-2011, 12:05 AM

The combo is a 1210 gp12 with 4x10. when sold they said a 300w but I'm thinking it must be a 200w. Indeed it has an extra jack-output for speaker on the back.

The cab from behringer is a 4ohm 4x10. So it is not 8ohm...

Martin-nl · #4 03-16-2011, 11:53 AM

reading this
site

gives me that if the combospeakers are 8 then with my extra cab it would give 2,666 resistance. If the combospeakers are 4 then it would be 2ohm. How to find out if the trace can handle it?

Either way the amp must be suitable for 2ohm right?

RickenBoogie · #5 03-16-2011, 12:23 PM

If the internal spkrs in the combo are 8 ohms, then you need an 8 ohm ext cab, and NOT use the 4 ohm cab you have now. Sell it, buy a proper 8 ohm 410.

BassmanPaul · #6 03-16-2011, 12:38 PM

I've not seen a Trace SS amp rated for 2Ω operation. If you can give me the model number I'll see if I can find the schematic.

AtomicPunk · #7 03-16-2011, 01:34 PM

Doing a little research shows that it is an 8 ohm extension cabinet out. Do not use the 4 ohm cabinet with this.

Martin-nl · #8 03-16-2011, 03:33 PM

Thank you for all your responses! It now is for me for sure not to use this cabinet as an extra. The model is a 1210 gp12 series 6 as a 4x10 combo (pre gibson as one said). It was sold to me as a 300w but the more I am searching info I'm sure it is a 200w. It is way better and louder then my previous behringer 300w so that is good!!
Maybe I can change 2 drivers of the extra cabinet with 16ohm drivers parallel?

I found a picture on the net

AtomicPunk · #9 03-16-2011, 03:53 PM

As said before...sell the 4 ohm cab and buy an 8 ohm cab.

Martin-nl · #10 03-16-2011, 04:12 PM

AtomicPunk that is a very good advice. But the Behringer cabs (and for sure the BA410) is worth nothing here. Even I got it for a lousy 50euros and it has been beaten up a little after that. No one to sell it to.. So why not tear it apart and put in new drivers or something like that.. But you are prob. right.

BasmanPaul, hope the info helps you with the schematics? If needed I can make pictures you need of the amp?

RickenBoogie · #11 03-16-2011, 05:41 PM

You can't expect much from the Behringer cab, beyond what it is already. Swapping in new speakers may or may not work, but the likelihood is probably not. There's alot of science involved in matching a speaker to a given enclosure- so I wouldn't waste my money on it. Just play the 410 combo as is until you can afford a proper 8 ohm 410.

Downunderwonder · #12 03-16-2011, 09:30 PM

You're getting it, slowly though. The behringer cannot be rewired nor reconfigured with two odd drivers in any useful way. You could replace all four but it would be a waste of money.

I can understand your frustration. Having heard it sing once with the extra cab you want that again. It's crack cocaine man. Save up for another cab.

You don't need the schematic, you need another 8 ohm cab.

Brainstorm idea to get you a little breathing time is to cut the "worthless" b'ringer in half and make it into a 2x10 8 ohm. It'll get half the power from the amp but it should hold up. Be good and sure you wire them for 8 ohm. Series 4 ohm, parallel 16 ohm driver pair.

Martin-nl · #13 03-17-2011, 12:07 AM

okee guess you are all right... The behringer is not worthless it has always been a good compagnion on stage. Maybe I can make someone happy with it. Thank you for all your replies it made things clear. Yes I want to hear sing the Trace again with an extra cab, so I will be saving for a decent 8ohm cab.

Martin-nl · #14 03-21-2011, 03:07 AM

okee I've done my first few gigs with this beautiful amp. it is perfect and what i need for the places the band performs. My urgent need for more power has disappeared in an instance! So I'll be saving for a cabinet that fits the amp.

Now for the technical information to the clubs: Anybody knows how to find out the wattage of this amp?

Downunderwonder · #15 03-21-2011, 08:54 AM

Congrats on getting it on stage. Why do you need to know the wattage?

Ask on the Team Trace Elliot thread. I'm fairly sure it's 200W RMS as it looks similar to other heads of that era but I could easily be wrong.

I'm surprised it doesn't say on the back of the amp. Mine is slightly newer model and says 250W RMS 500W peak. And you better believe it will spit out 500W if you boot it.

If you really want to test it out it's a fairly simple procedure.
Unplug the speaker from the amp and plug in a speaker cable you can put a mutimeter set to A/C volts onto.

Generate a 60HZ sinewave with audacity (free PC software). Take PC audio out to mixer, put that into preamp and wind up gains until just before the red light warns clipping of the preamp. Then wind up the amp output and see what voltage you're getting.

It'll be a significant voltage so be careful not to short out your multimeter probes or the end of the cable, very bad for the amp.

Watts is only watts when voltage is applied to speakers. 200W is made at 4 ohm with 28V.
V= squareroot( power x impedance )

You can see why adding another cab makes so much more noise when you sub 28V into power = Vsquared / impedance with 4 ohm instead of 8 ohm.

Dont' do any of that with a valve amp unless you're measuring it with a dummy load attached.

Martin-nl · #16 03-21-2011, 11:02 AM

Downunderwonder, this really is a nice trick to measure the wattage. I had to read it twice to understand but surely I will try that in the near future. First I'll have to buy a multimeter (the sinus-wave is already made). I am curious the reading I will get. It is good to know the wattage for the stageplans etc. If you are sure it is 200w I am sure also

Thank you for your explaining reply.

Downunderwonder · #17 03-21-2011, 09:03 PM

It really doesn't matter if it's 150, 200, 250W. Plan on being loud enough as is. Headroom rules. You want to hear the "colour" of the drums. The rig you have is plenty loud for unamplified drums if the drummer is an artist. If he's a basher then it's very good experience for him to use the headroom available to him when you're playing the combo and playing dynamically yourself.

Are you are doing some big shows with big PA? Ideally you want to turn everything down rather than up so there is less interference with the PA sound.

Old Trace amps are legendary for sounding louder than others of the same "wattage". Yet I've read of someone testing one out with sinewaves and finding nothing unusual. "Punchy" is the most common description of mine, since way before the internet.

Back in the day Marshall introduced "Dynamic Bass System" which was supposed to provide for extra heavy dynamics with some kind of extra power supply on standby. "Turns a 200W amp into a 2000W amp", never heard one.

Martin-nl · #18 03-22-2011, 01:20 AM

Your statement is absolutely true. Luckily with the Swing-jazz band I play with the drummer as well as the rest of the band know this to be true. The Trace is more then efficient here. Plenty of headroom for my double bass. When playing PA I tend to turn on the volume just at the same level as the monitors and keep the bass out of the monitor. This way I have less feedback. (well it is no feedback, more like the bass picks up the sound again from the monitor, just don't know the english word)

On the other hand: with my rockabillysurfpunk we need to get loud. Like in LOUD! Coloring the sound is no priority at all... And it is more often we play gigs whithout a PA but still need to be loud... You know the kind of DIY-festivals. But I am sure there where I just had not enough power with the Behringer 450w I will have more then I need with the Trace 200w. I am saving up for an extra cabinet.

Although the behringer-amp never let me down, Trace rules!

Martin-nl · #19 03-01-2012, 04:32 AM

A year later, reading this post.... Still there is no extra cabinet. No need for it. For all the gigs I have played I never had to go full power on the Trace. It is a very good compagnion!