Tube Amp queries

big_bertha · #1 05-25-2011, 01:51 AM

Hey all, I'm looking into getting a tube amp and was looking at getting an old tube driven PA like an sound city or something similar to replace my GK 700rb. Would 50 watts be enough for jams and gigs- small gigs of around 100 people, mostly mic'd, although our band is pretty damn loud for a three piece (a Bonham enthusiast drummer and a 40w fender deluxe with a tonne of fuzz to compete with). I know there wont be a lot of headroom, but I am lookin for a pretty dirty driven tone. I would be using it with a Ampeg SVT410HE. Would this be efficient to keep up with the two other instruments? Thanks in advance!

JimmyM · #2 05-25-2011, 01:56 AM

it could, but there's no way of knowing until you hear it for yourself.

T-Bird · #3 05-25-2011, 02:18 AM

Hi.

Based on Your description of the band, the other gear and the size of the audience, I'd vote for no.

Since most (if not all) of the easily available tube PA heads are ~100W, why the 50W?

That 100W won't cut it either if You seek the "modern" bass voicing, but is more than adequate if more traditional tone is the goal.

I have played with ~100W "guitar" tube heads (Marshall, Fender, Monster) for almost the entire ~25 years I've been playing, only the last one was a 300W (200W really) amp. The only problem for me has been that they're way too loud for the tone I like, and since SS stomp boxes are out of the question, the tone gets sacrificed a bit.

Regards
Sam

big_bertha · #4 05-25-2011, 02:25 AM

hey guys, cheers for the responses. I would be keen for a 100 watt, just trying to see how much I could get away with to save a few dollars (would have to source from the UK too, live in New Zealand and there ain't much to play round with-so postage would be that much more with the watts/weight ratio). And, yea I'm after a bit more of a vintage vibe, we play garage, punk surf kinda of music, I just dont see the need for a huge high powered amp cause I wont use that much juice to drive it and my current amp, a GK 700RBII is around 320 watts and I'm using that under halfway in all uses, and understand that most people say that tubes 'sound' louder than solid state...

spaz21387 · #5 05-25-2011, 02:28 AM

Im pretty sure that a cab draws all the watts from the head even if the volume knob isnt turned all the way up.

big_bertha · #6 05-25-2011, 02:37 AM

I see, although I'm not having to crank it up to be heard.. although I aint that sharp on my amp/speaker science either haha

T-Bird · #7 05-25-2011, 02:44 AM

Hi.

NZ and vintage would mean that a Holden/Wasp would be perfect. Those should be pretty easy to find in Australia and in New Zealand.

Fender PA100 (and PA135) is usually really cheap amp considering its potential. Marshall PA heads are good candidates as well, but the vintage market has driven their prices through the roof. Both the export Marshalls and Fenders usually had multitapped transformers for international use, that's always a +.

Regards
Sam

big_bertha · #8 05-25-2011, 02:48 AM

Hey Sam, yes your correct, I am in Holden territory but these tube amps or other Nz manufacturers such as Gunn and Jansen still dont come up as much as the saturated market of tube amps on ebay.. cheers

JimmyM · #9 05-25-2011, 03:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spaz21387

Im pretty sure that a cab draws all the watts from the head even if the volume knob isnt turned all the way up.

no it doesn't.

MAMMOTHvolume · #10 05-25-2011, 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spaz21387

Im pretty sure that a cab draws all the watts from the head even if the volume knob isnt turned all the way up.

what?

BassmanPaul · #11 05-25-2011, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by big_bertha

and understand that most people say that tubes 'sound' louder than solid state...

This is entirely subjective and depends on how much distortion you are prepared to live with.

BassmanPaul · #12 05-25-2011, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spaz21387

Im pretty sure that a cab draws all the watts from the head even if the volume knob isnt turned all the way up.

A cabinet doesn't "draw" anything. It only uses what is being given to it by the amplifier.

I think that you are referring to the fact that even with the volume turned down a sufficiently large input signal will drive the amp to full output.

Downunderwonder · #13 05-25-2011, 10:46 AM

I've got a made in NZ, Jansen 50W "Bassman". It makes a fair racket but I don't think it would quite do what you want unless you give up headroom altogether. Probably quite ok for monitoring yourself if the other's don't mind only background levels of bass.

I've only played mine out with the rear panel gain set for clean. It kept up with a loud bar gig but no drums. It was fine at practice with drums but it didn't seem like it would carry a gig so I haven't tried it.

Corey Y · #14 05-25-2011, 11:25 AM

There are affordable "vintage" tube amps that can usually be had for a reasonable price, not sure about the availability in your area. A Traynor YBA-1 (or 1A) or a Sound City 50 Plus would do that job pretty well, with the right cabinet(s). There's really no way to know what's going to work unless you try it out, different people have different definitions of "loud", "clean" and "dirty". My two main amps are a Traynor YBA-1 and a Sound City B120 into an Ampeg 810 and I'm competing with two tube amp full stacks playing heavy distortion. I can get enough volume out of the Traynor to hold my own fine, the Sound City gets me there with a lot more clean headroom. I tend to use the Traynor most of the time because I like that extra push and dirt on the tone and I'm definitely not getting into over the top fuzz.

See what you can dig up locally before you shell out to have something you've never played shipped overseas. I would try to get something dirty cheap and then have a good tech recap it and give it a once over. That's my "IMHO/YMMV" forum answer, but personally to MY taste I think an older 50 or 100 watt tube head with big transformers can be more than loud enough with a fantastic tone for most rock based bands. I don't like "modern bass tone" for the music I play, or in generally really, so I'm biased. However the bias from the other end tends to manifest in the form of "anything under ____ watts isn't useable" or "the rule is whatever the power of the guitar amp is, multiply by ___", which is rubbish.

IMHO/YMMV

skychief · #15 05-25-2011, 11:38 AM

50 watt tube amp might be lacking in the headroom dept for a power-trio application. I use a 70's-something blueface Bassman (50w) for rehearsals and small indoor gigs - -plenty of power for that kind of work. But for a power-trio i would reccommend a 100w amp...it would be closer to what youre getting from your GK 700RB --but with a serving of "dirt" .

RickenBoogie · #16 05-25-2011, 12:29 PM

I'd consider a 100 watt amp to be only marginally acceptable in this case, 50 watts is way too little wattage to work with. Also, the 410he cab is an 8 ohm cab. Huge consideration on which amp to use- it must have an 8 ohm tap, not all tube amps do.

paganjack · #17 05-25-2011, 12:40 PM

If the cab is enough volume for you to begin with, I would think that a nice 100w tube amp could drive it just fine. It's going to be dirty, but it sounds like you want that.

big_bertha · #18 05-26-2011, 05:03 PM

hey thanks guys, I think I will have to go for a 100watter.. hopefully a holden or something turns up...

big_bertha · #19 05-26-2011, 05:11 PM

RARE >> FI SONIC ALL VALVE AMP | Trade Me hey guys found this on a local auction site.. apparently runs on 4 ohms and my cab runs on 8? does this mean it will not drive the full output power? also looks like i would have to rewire the jacks to normal 1/4" instead of the xlr for a cab 1/4". Its a guitar head really but runs on KT88, would this offer a more beefy sound than say a guitar amp that runs on el34s? cheers

Aussie Player · #20 05-26-2011, 06:07 PM

Up until recently, I owned a bar which was 2500 square feet in size and we had bands every week on Fri and Sat evenings.

The most common bass amp was a Hartke 350 W head into a 4x10 cab. When standing alone, they tended to distort and what really showed them up was the guys who turned up with the 500 W version. These amps were noticeably clearer and every bass line played was heard no matter what bass what used.

Every time a bass sound turned my head, it tended to be a 2 cab set up with 500 - 1,000 watts driving it.

From this, I would say that the amount of speakers makes a difference but also, the fact that the better clearer bass sounds were running at 4 Ohms was the clear definition.

Running single boxes of 8 Ohms does not compare in power, clarity or punch. For my own rig, I have evolved over the years to running 2 heads into 2, 4 Ohm boxes, 1 with 2x15's and the other with 8x10's. There is no comparison, based on my 40 years personal experience and the years in the bar watching and listening intently.

I too love the sound of hte old Fender 50 and 100 W heads. They were wonderful but underpowered for today, and yesterday.

I also grew up in Oz and used Marshall, Sunn, Peavy and Wasp Amps. The Wasp's always farted, not just mine but everyone I ever saw. One box or 2 boxes, it didn't make any difference but they cut through the mix better than most amps.

For anyone today looking for an amp today, I would always recommend a minimum of 350 Watts if S/State and 200 Watts if Valve and run it into a 4 Ohm box for the best results.