Tube Amps - Now I get it....

[slagbass]

Here's my story....
I've owned nothing but solid state amps since I started playing almost 30 years ago (jeez, I'm old....). Over the years I would occasionally get to try out a tube amp in a rented rehearsal room - usually an Ampeg V4 or some type of Traynor. Never paid much attention to them as they never seemed that special in terms of tone.
A few years back, I got to try a 70's SVT on a rehearsal. Boy, was I psyched! I'd heard so much about these, but never had a chance to play through one myself in a band setting. Went at it with a Sadowsky jazz and a '66P in consecutive rehearsals expecting something close to a religious experience. The result? Meh. Flabby lows, slow response - all the negative stereotypes of tube amps seemed to be embodied in this impressive looking but rather dull sounding beast.
About a year ago, I got a chance to play a few sets through a '67 Bassman on local pick up gig. Hmmmm - this was nice! Couldn't get too loud, but had warmth, dynamics and a kind of natural compression that I'd never heard through another amp. Maybe I'm on to something here.....
With the help of my TB brothers, I explained my situation in the amp forum soliciting recommendations. Thanks to RickenBoogie and anderbass, I was alerted to an amp that wasn't even on my radar - Mesa Boogie Buster 200.
Picked one up on TB classifieds and had a chance to put it through its paces driving a pair of ancient Hartke 410s last night. Holy sh&t! The sound! Everything I liked about the Bassman, but with more headroom. After a couple of sets, I really started getting a feel for the dynamics of the amp. I usually back off a bit during the verses to let the singer's voice come through, but now the whole band was responding to the dynamics of what I was playing. Nothing slow or flabby about this sucker. It was as tight and quick as any SS amp, but with so much more "bloom" and "wallop"...
So there you have it. Another convert who will gladly schlep a heavier amp to get to tonal nirvana. All you tube-heads out there are welcome to say "I told you so"......

[JimmyM]

i won't say i told you so, but i will question this slow response business. every time i plug into an amp no matter what the topology, i hit a note, and the note comes out instantly. what's slow about that?

[slagbass]

What can I say? I could feel a lag in response relative to what I was used to on a SS amp. Maybe I was hearing something else and thinking it was a lag, but that's what it felt/sounded like to me. I'm hoping somebody can chime in with a theoretical explanation to back this up because I know I'm not the only one who has experienced this.
And thanks for not saying I told you so...

[RickenBoogie]

I have no scientific answer, but I know exactly what you're saying. Like Jimmy said, you hit a note, and out it comes, BUT, that Buster amp does feel more like a solid state amp, and then some. And, I loved the creamy fat tones from Ampeg's V4/V4B/V4BH, but found Buster to sit better in a mix, and actually have the ability to dominate a mix, if need be, while still sounding like tubes. It's magic. Congrats on the Buster, may it give you goose bumps for many years to come.

[slagbass]

Originally Posted by RickenBoogie

I have no scientific answer, but I know exactly what you're saying. Like Jimmy said, you hit a note, and out it comes, BUT, that Buster amp does feel more like a solid state amp, and then some. And, I loved the creamy fat tones from Ampeg's V4/V4B/V4BH, but found Buster to sit better in a mix, and actually have the ability to dominate a mix, if need be, while still sounding like tubes. It's magic. Congrats on the Buster, may it give you goose bumps for many years to come.

Thanks for chiming in and, especially, thanks for the amp recommendation.

[beans-on-toast]

[randall p]

Originally Posted by beans-on-toast

I literally just LOL'ed !!!

[Calaverasgrande]

usually, "slowness" of amps means that you either have the eq set up kinda sideways (some amps just dont sound good with extreme eq). Or it can mean that its time for a recap job. Last time I had my amp recapped it was like I had gotten a new set of tubes, new strings and a fret job. Much clearer, and "quicker".

[John D]

Speed of sound at sea level = 340.29 m/s.
Speed of light = 299,792,458 m/s
Speed of electric current through wire ~ Speed of light.

[randall p]

FWIW, I've owned an SVT CL for several years. Recently I picked up a GK Backline for smaller, quieter gigs. The first thing I noticed was the GK had an Immediacy that my SVT didn't have. Now, we are talking milliseconds. And in a band mix I do not notice a difference at all.
Alas, my SVT and matching 410hle cost roughly $2000. Without question, I definitely got 10x the tone as opposed to the GK.

[Spencer!]

Originally Posted by slagbass

What can I say? I could feel a lag in response relative to what I was used to on a SS amp. Maybe I was hearing something else and thinking it was a lag, but that's what it felt/sounded like to me. I'm hoping somebody can chime in with a theoretical explanation to back this up because I know I'm not the only one who has experienced this.
And thanks for not saying I told you so...

What you are perceiving as a lag is actually transient compression. A tube amp compresses the transient (the initial attack of a note), making the note sound a bit softer/looser/insert adjective here. A solid state amp linearly amplifies whatever you put into it, more accurately reproducing the transient, which some would call harsh/sterile/etc.

[randall p]

Originally Posted by Spencer!

What you are perceiving as a lag is actually transient compression. A tube amp compresses the transient (the initial attack of a note), making the note sound a bit softer/looser/insert adjective here. A solid state amp linearly amplifies whatever you put into it, more accurately reproducing the transient, which some would call harsh/sterile/etc.

Spencer, this IS what a lot of us want from a compressor. And why I don't use one anymore. Sorry.

[vivifiction]

Originally Posted by Spencer!

What you are perceiving as a lag is actually transient compression. A tube amp compresses the transient (the initial attack of a note), making the note sound a bit softer/looser/insert adjective here. A solid state amp linearly amplifies whatever you put into it, more accurately reproducing the transient, which some would call harsh/sterile/etc.

Exactly. An "Attack Transient" deals with the articulation of a note. So playing with, say, a pick, gives you a different attack transient than plucking with your fingers, or slapping- the sound is different, but the note is the same. Tube vs. SS gives different transients as well, as described by Spencer!

[rodl2005]

Originally Posted by beans-on-toast

Would it be like comparing Amphetamines to Opiates

As William S. Burroughs once said- I don't like ANYTHING that makes my hands shake

[randall p]

Out of curiosity, what power tubes are in the Buster?

[Spencer!]

Originally Posted by randall p

Spencer, this IS what a lot of us want from a compressor. And why I don't use one anymore. Sorry.

What?

[slagbass]

Originally Posted by Calaverasgrande

usually, "slowness" of amps means that you either have the eq set up kinda sideways (some amps just dont sound good with extreme eq). Or it can mean that its time for a recap job. Last time I had my amp recapped it was like I had gotten a new set of tubes, new strings and a fret job. Much clearer, and "quicker".

In my case, it wasn't the eq - I had everything roughly at twelve o'clock and didn't try any extreme settings. Can't speak for the recap as it wasn't my amp - but given that it was in a rented rehearsal space, you may be on to something.

[slagbass]

Originally Posted by beans-on-toast

Brilliant! The patient even looks like me....

[slagbass]

Originally Posted by randall p

Out of curiosity, what power tubes are in the Buster?

Svetlana Winged-C's. 6L6s I believe. No idea how old they are.

[Deluge Of Sound]

I'm glad you've joined us on the right side of the fence.