Tube Gurus: Is it worth it to upgrade the transformer on my Marshall Lemmy?

[phishaholik]

I was reading about another company switching out the transformer and rebuilding an Orange AD200 into point to point and I was thinking about doing some upgrades to my Marshall Lemmy. It sounds fantastic right now, definitely the best sounding amp I've ever heard, but I wonder if some new tubes and a transformer from Mercury Magnetics might just kick this thing into epic status. I've read on numerous sites that the transformers used by many amp companies aren't as good as they should be and this is a great way to upgrade a tube amp.


Any thoughts?


Michael

[Mr. Foxen]

Chunk of the Marshall tone is in the OT limitations. And the rebuilt Orange wasn't point to point, it was turrets, just the guy writing about it had no clue what he was talking about.

[phishaholik]

Thanks for the input!


Just to clarify for me, since I'm far from an amp expert, you are saying that a chunk of the Marshall tone is in the output transformer limitations? Do you mean in a good way or a bad way?



Michael

[wcriley]

I guess that depends on whether you like the Marshall sound.

[JimmyM]

Yep. If you beef up the transformers, it may no longer scream like Lemmy's when you want it. That said, I've heard nothing but good out of Mercury, and maybe if I had a bad transformer I'd inquire to them about a new one, but it sounds like you love your amp as is, and I'd leave it. Maybe it's an upgrade, but it doesn't always mean you're going to like it.

[DaZombieWoof]

Yes, the output transformers play a major part on Marshall amps. The same tubes sound very different in a HiWatt, though admittedly still very Brit El34. I would suggest contacting the folks at Mercury Magnetics who would tell you what the transformers would do for you. I suspect you would get something that ran cooler and was more reliable. Concievably, you might be able to get more output over a broader frequency band within limits of the tubes and circuit. That being said, it would not sound the same anymore.

[Mr. Foxen]

If broader flatter frequency range is what you are after, and that is what a well designed OT gives you, then Marshall is a really bad place to start.

[chaosMK]

How much do you want to spend? If I remember correctly, transformers for my Mesa run about $400 each from Mercury. Not sure what yours might run, but it will probably be substantial.

[NoFretsNoWorry]

I have worked/tweaked on tube amps for a while.

I am no expert or engineer, (enthusiast maybe?) but I do have significant experience and I have worked with engineers in tweaking my amps.

Bill Banks in Dallas, TX worked with my amps. He is an electrical engineer (worked for Raytheon) and has consulted with Marshall, Fender, and Mesa Boogie; he has multiple sheep skins on his shop wall indicating their gratitude for his consultation services, including the aforementioned manufacturers. I learned quite a bit from him!

Any tube amp sound is a combination of the output transformer (OT) and tubes being used IMO.

Recently, I tend to believe that the OT contributes more than the tubes. Why? Because between the 1980's thru the late 1990's tubes were inconsistently produced, so a focus on the OT consequently took place in that marketplace.

Now tubes are more consistently produced and there are a lot of videos showing the boutique OT product A/B'd compared to original OT.

I say for the ultimate sound, great tubes always helps with a great OT! Look for the reviews of any OT boutique dealer and contact them asking what difference they can make.

PEACE

[beans-on-toast]

On one hand, if upgrading the OPT would kick the amp up to the next level, I think that Marshall would have done it. After all, this is a custom designed Lemmy amp, not an off the shelf model that Mercury Magnetics is offering an upgrade for. Marshall went through a process with Lemmy to provide the tone that he wanted. On the other hand they were probably trying to meet a price constraint when producing the product and maybe corners were cut.

MM offers two types of transformers, exact replacements for people with blown transformers, and enhanced versions. You have to find out from MM what type their product is. More iron is good thing when it comes to bass amps. This will change the character of your amp. Contacting MM and asking them what their transformer is going to do in this amp is your best bet. They A/B'ed the original and replacement transformers and heard what their product is capable of doing.

If you want to take a conservative approach, try replacing the pre-amp tubes first, listen and evaluate, then replace the power amp tubes, and listen again. Go one step at a time. At some point you will need new tubes so doing this is not going to cost you in the long run.

If you change the OPT and are unhappy with the results, the old one can be put back in. Sometimes the learning process is expensive.

[BogeyBass]

limitations being most guitar amps use cheap transformers.
and the frequency response does not go below 60 to 80hz at full power.

So the limited response gives it a natural high pass filtering which can smooth out the distortion, and the fact they are blasting a 25watt core with 50 watts. Or a 40 watt core with 80/100 watts the core saturation adds a gritty distortion to it. given the "sound"
which is just the cheap transformer being saturated.

For a bass amp your looking for lower frequency response and if you want output distortion. I would still rather get distortion from the tube itself, not by using a underated transformer.

Weight is not a for sure indication of performance but if you have a 100 watt amp with a 5/6 pound output transformer and a 100 watt amp with a 7/8 pound, most likely the heavier transformer is better.
Otherwise quality of the wiring and the level of interleaving can improve the transformer as well. And to get the same impedance match with better wire and more interleaving the size and weight of the core has to be bigger, hence heavier.

Or you can do what some fender and traynor amps did, and instead of having 16 8 and 4ohm taps. They had just one tap to match the load the of the speaker system being used. So you can dedicate a single 8ohm or 4ohm tap with decent wire but still use a smaller cheaper core since it does not have to contain extra taps.

I would have to look at the Lemmy amp but marshall likes to use cheap low current power transformers, and they just use a full bridge rectifier to pull more voltage out of it. Getting a few more watts by using higher voltage, instead of using a lower voltage higher current transformer for more watts, which again is more expensive and larger. But for bass response that swings with clean authority you need more current. Otherwise you just have a amp that might test well wattage wise, But its just very dirty watts with little accuracy in the bass region.

It seems the lemmy head is designed for distortion and early distortion, if thats what you like then the amp is just fine. But if your looking for more clean overhead and deeper bass, your looking at a completely different tube type and a much heavier transformer. Beam tetrodes like 6l6 6550 have more bass response and break up later. Pentodes like EL34 have more midrange and break up earlier. So personally I really see no reason for them in a bass amp unless you wanted distortion.
or if you wanted to drink more power out of the system by using higher voltage, since the plate voltage can be much higher with a EL34. It greatly reduces the life its still a 25 watt plate. So a pair going with a decent voltage with a 35 to 45watt plate is better in my opinion. such as a 6550 or Kt88.

[BbbyBld]

I wouldn't change anything on it. I think Lemmy probably likes it the way it is. It may be a collectors item one day. Mercury transformers are overpriced anyway.

[nashvillebill]

Originally Posted by BbbyBld

I wouldn't change anything on it. I think Lemmy probably likes it the way it is. It may be a collectors item one day. Mercury transformers are overpriced anyway.

+1 on all points.

[JGR]

I would leave it alone but if you decide to do it, talk to the folks at Heyboer - great iron and they won't rape your price-wise like MM. Mercury used to be reasonably priced, and when they gained some notoriety, they jacked their prices through the roof, mainly cause guitards are willing to pay it if they think there is some magic mojo involved. They are quality but there isn't anything special that makes them worth double the price of everyone else. I have a copy of their price sheet which they no longer put on their site, and when you get to 25 pieces, the price is something like 50% cheaper. They offered a lifetime deal where they kept track of what you bought with no time limit so you would eventually get into the lower pricing levels. Point being is that the pricing structure has nothing to do with economy of scale. Most dealers give you 15% off MM's list which is still pretty lousy considering how inflated their list prices are. Hammond and the stuff from CE dist. is also very good.

[JimmyM]

OK, so I heard MOSTLY good about Mercury But yeah, their prices are steeeeeep.

[JGR]

Yup, they are steep.

I've been talking to the Heyboer folks as of late for some trannies for my 200/400 watt all tube builds, and they have been very nice to deal with, and their prices are great - really surprised me considering they are putting out quality US iron, and are happy to customize for you. They are also cool with one-offs and low quantities.

[phishaholik]

Thanks for all the info guys! I have to say, I learned a lot in this thread. I do love the tone of this amp and I'm thinking I shouldn't mess with it just for the sake of messing with it. I was kind of thinking, "I LOVE the tone of this amp now, but it might even be better if I just dump a bunch of unnecessary money into it" which I don't think was probably the best train of thought. I will probably put some different tubes in it at some point, just to see how it affects it, but probably under the advice of someone who knows more than me.


Thanks again y'all,


Michael

[Alex1984]

Rather than throwing that kind of money into a transformer and messing around with a tone that you already love, I'd rather spend it on another amp that offers a different tone that you also like.

[Bassmec]

I have changed out the transformer and fitted a choke in many a modern marshall, sometimes using mercury magnetics (fatstack tm) and choke kit.
then sometimes If its my amp that I don't mind drilling holes in
I get Sowter transformers just down the road to build me a
proper huge old school thin imperial laminate sizes partridge clone transformer and tell brian he can have all the extra money it would cost importing a Mercury transformer and choke
if he invests it all in extra copper and laminates and old school stinky varnish.
It changes the tone on a modern marshall from thin, strangulated and reedy to big bassy open and full.
I don't have any experience with Lemmy signature amps
but if you want the worlds best output trans in your tube amp
it probably wont be available from marshalls spares department.
Its probably really a pair of these old serious high quality bad boys

One for each pair of tubes like the old Matamp 4 X KT88 200 before partridge brought out their brilliant, all in one 200 watt transformer.

[Clammy]

Originally Posted by phishaholik

Thanks for all the info guys! I have to say, I learned a lot in this thread. I do love the tone of this amp and I'm thinking I shouldn't mess with it just for the sake of messing with it. I was kind of thinking, "I LOVE the tone of this amp now, but it might even be better if I just dump a bunch of unnecessary money into it" which I don't think was probably the best train of thought. I will probably put some different tubes in it at some point, just to see how it affects it, but probably under the advice of someone who knows more than me.


Thanks again y'all,


Michael

If it ain't broke, don't "fix" it.

Cheers!