Tube Noob,...On a Budget,...What do I Need to Know?

[warwick.hoy]

I hardly ever venture into the Amps subforum but I did check the sticky, specifically the tube amps portion and it's a lot to wade through. My apologies if I'm beating a dead horse.

I've never owned an all tube amp. I know what to expect in terms of weight but am not entirely clear on Tube Vs. SS power, if there really is any differences. As an FX junkie I'm really interested in seeing how differently Fuzzes and Distortions react between all Tube amps and SS amps. I guess initially I'd like to give a small tube amp a go on a home practice level and see how well it does with Fuzz and Distos interacting and pushing the tubes and perhaps upgrade to a full rig if I like what I'm hearing. FWIW I'm trying to see if tubes deliver on some hype that I've seen in the FX subforum as well as in the industry as a whole (why I see a lot of tube rigs on stage).

I've had in the past an SVT-3 Pro, SWR SM-500 and SVT-IIp Preamp/SS poweramp setup. These of course are all hybrid amps with a tube pre and SS poweramp,...but I'm not really sold on a hybrid amp having the same sound as an all tube amp (am I misled?). I'm also under the impression that just because there are a few 12AX7's in the signal chain does not necessarily mean you will get that tube sound.

There are certainly the standards that I'm already aware of with like the B-15 (which I like), SVT CL and brethren as well as some SUNN amps and the Mesa Boogie 400+ (which I would kill for), but these all seem out of my price range and the 400+ seems to be hard to find.

Currently I run pretty hot rigs. I like it loud and punchy. I run a 500 watt GK MB2-500 into a 4ohm 4x10 Avatar cab. I gripe about not being able to hear myself but I attribute that to not pushing enough air with just 4 tens. I also have a SS pre/SS poweramp that I run around the same wattage but have plans to add another cab to that; the reason being two fold,...MOAR POWER and pushing more air (the amp will run down to 2 ohms bridged or 4 ohms on each channel). It's not out of the realm of possibility that I might pick some 8ohm Avatar cabs to run with a tube amp unless there are amps that will run down to 2 ohms.

With all that in consideration are there any amps out there that are relatively inexpensive perhaps even some sort of combo that I could give a try to at least see if I want to go that route. I have yet to set a budget but considering an SVT+ an 8x10 can run up into the 2-3 grand range,...I'm certainly not willing to spend that much. Perhaps there are some obscure brands that I'm not familiar with. I'm even open to going a DIY route albeit on limited knowledge and a high likelihood of personal injury.

Sorry for the stream of consciousness.

[M0ses]

You are in fact beating a dead horse, but your apology is accepted. Everyone is always up for this type of discussion, it seems. But don't look forward to any sort of conclusive answer or consensus.

[warwick.hoy]

Originally Posted by M0ses

You are in fact beating a dead horse, but your apology is accepted. Everyone is always up for this type of discussion, it seems. But don't look forward to any sort of conclusive answer or consensus.

I figured as much. I've been playing bass for 16 years and have absolutely no idea where to start when it comes to tubes. I'm not anti solid state or anti tubes (life's too short to be anti), I just want to physically hear the differences and let my ears do the deciding.

How about just the short form of that long *** post. Is there an inexpensive all tube amp that I could try out in a home practice environment to see if an all tube amp would work for me?

[MIJ-VI]

Have you checked neighbourhood pawn shops and advertised yard/garage sales for a possible low-cost, all-tube test amp cum future home practice/recording amp?

It wouldn't have to be a bass amp per se (old Fender and Traynor tube guitar combos, for example, sound good for bass at low volumes).

[warwick.hoy]

Originally Posted by MIJ-VI

Have you checked neighbourhood pawn shops and advertised yard/garage sales for a possible low-cost, all-tube test amp cum future home practice/recording amp?

It wouldn't have to be a bass amp per se (old Fender and Traynor tube guitar combos, for example, sound good for bass at low volumes).

I've looked in passing but never come across anything I would consider. Best I could find was a Berhinger SVT CL clone,....ugh. I'm hoping it won't come down to that.



I know b-15s aren't exactly hi wattage amps but guitar amps at any wattage just don't seem to have the bass response. Perhaps a guitar amp and replace the speakers?

[D.M.N.]

Just hitting on the "power", or perceived volume difference between equally rated SS and Valve heads: from everything that I have gathered, the only reason a Valve amp is perceived as louder is because when it reaches the point of distortion, it breaks up in a very pleasing and "musical" manner. Conversely, when a SS amp reaches the end of it's clean power (output before reaching distortion), it begins to clip in a very nasty and harsh way. Therefore, they can technically put out the same amount of power, you'll just reach a clipping point on an SS, and on a Tube amp, you can just keep going into overdrive.


Regarding amps: you could look into old Bassman heads. They don't get very loud for gigging out, but would be totally sufficient for a at home amp. For newer amps, you could see if you could snag a used Traynor YBA-200 or Peavey VB2, though those might have too much power for just in home stuff.

[warwick.hoy]

Pushing an all tube amp is what I think the appeal is for me I think.

A Bassman would be cool. They are rare on this side of the state though.

[MIJ-VI]

Originally Posted by D.M.N.

Just hitting on the "power", or perceived volume difference between equally rated SS and Valve heads: from everything that I have gathered, the only reason a Valve amp is perceived as louder is because when it reaches the point of distortion, it breaks up in a very pleasing and "musical" manner. Conversely, when a SS amp reaches the end of it's clean power (output before reaching distortion), it begins to clip in a very nasty and harsh way. Therefore, they can technically put out the same amount of power, you'll just reach a clipping point on an SS, and on a Tube amp, you can just keep going into overdrive.


Regarding amps: you could look into old Bassman heads. They don't get very loud for gigging out, but would be totally sufficient for a at home amp. For newer amps, you could see if you could snag a used Traynor YBA-200 or Peavey VB2, though those might have too much power for just in home stuff.

Tubes also compress audio when pushed to the edge of clipping which makes an all-tube amp sound louder in a similar manner to how the compressed audio in TV commercials sounds louder than the non-compressed audio in the movie one is trying to watch late at night without disturbing others.

[MIJ-VI]

Originally Posted by warwick.hoy

Pushing an all tube amp is what I think the appeal is for me I think.

A Bassman would be cool. They are rare on this side of the state though.

Something usable will pop up in the TB classifieds.

[nad]

Originally Posted by warwick.hoy

I've never owned an all tube amp . . . As an FX junkie I'm really interested in seeing how differently Fuzzes and Distortions react between all Tube amps and SS amps.

Once you go fuzz into tube, it's hard to go back to solid state. And hey, I like solid state amps, played them for years. But there is something magical about that combination.

You should buy that Ampeg V4BH in the classifieds right now. You'd be surprised how far 100 tube watts can take you. Please spare me the "watts = watts" arguments, the human ear is not a computer.

[warwick.hoy]

Unfortunately I'm in the gathering stage right now so funds are low but I thought I'd at least break the ice (although that's an attractive offer that I'll have to discuss with the wifey).

Am I right in assuming that an all tube amp reacts differently to push than a hybrid?

[D.M.N.]

Originally Posted by MIJ-VI

Tubes also compress audio when pushed to the edge of clipping which makes an all-tube amp sound louder in a similar manner to how the compressed audio in TV commercials sounds louder than the non-compressed audio in the movie one is trying to watch late at night without disturbing others.

Oh god, I KNOW! UGH! Just lounging on the couch, bag of tortilla chips, watching a movie, like Alien or something, and all of a sudden WHAM! TAKE THIS PILL! BUY FROM THIS BIG BOX STORE! SAVE THESE PUPPIES! HIRE ME AS A LAWYER!

I HATE when that happens!

[dave2]

Originally Posted by D.M.N.

Oh god, I KNOW! UGH! Just lounging on the couch, bag of tortilla chips, watching a movie, like Alien or something, and all of a sudden WHAM! TAKE THIS PILL! BUY FROM THIS BIG BOX STORE! SAVE THESE PUPPIES! HIRE ME AS A LAWYER!

I HATE when that happens!

My Warwick Thumb 5 and my Mesa 400+ sure sound good --- loud, solid, ballsy, etc. I need to play that combination more often. The drummer told me to turn down in the last rehearsal.

Good luck with your search.... you will find it I'm sure.

Dave

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by warwick.hoy

Unfortunately I'm in the gathering stage right now so funds are low but I thought I'd at least break the ice (although that's an attractive offer that I'll have to discuss with the wifey).

Am I right in assuming that an all tube amp reacts differently to push than a hybrid?

yes you are. hybrids get their push off of the preamp tube(s), while tube amps get their push off the power tubes, which are much bigger and bolder. however, it comes at a cost...the volume can be tremendous, even with a 100w amp.

[Deluge Of Sound]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

yes you are. hybrids get their push off of the preamp tube(s), while tube amps get their push off the power tubes, which are much bigger and bolder. however, it comes at a cost...[b]the volume can be tremendous, even with a 100w amp.[b]

Oh, Damn....


Warwick, if all you're really after is to see how all tube amps massage fuzz pedals into a state of sweet sonic ecstasy, you can find the Epiphone Valve Jr for under a hundred bucks.

[KramerBassFan]

Just get an Ampeg V4.

Not a whole lot of monies, 100w, and tube Ampeg tone.

I never really cared for them... until i found one for the right price.

My Homemade Superbass also does the job rather well.

[Selta]

I know you're way over there in Spokane, but if you're ever in/near Seattle, let me know and I'll let you play with my SVT all you want. Might help you find what you're looking for.