Tube overdrive at low volumes

[easternbull]

My current rig is a very transparent/clear active ibanez ATK, ashdown alltube lb30 and a ampeg svt20AV. Love the tone I'm getting from this set up, but I would like a little more growl/overdrive.

here are a few options:

A) purchase a passive bass(I think the active ATK combined with the blue steel strings might contribute to the diffuclty to break up)

B) swap out some of the tubes in the little bastard that break up earlier/easier.

C) Buy/try a analog OD pedal, VT or microtubes B7K.

There are not that many alltube amps that brake up at low volumes. Since this rig is only for homestudio work and tiny gigs. The Marshall 2061x is the only one that comes to mind.

Would rely be ashame to have to switch basses just to get a little more growl. On the other hand I need another for normal tuning, the ATK is set up for C,G,C,F.

[blastjv]

You might find that you get less OD sound with a passive bass depending on how much the preamp contributes to that sound. Or maybe a passive signal will allow you to push the power amp harder (which I suppose is your hope).

Maybe just lowering the volume on your bass will allow you to push the power section of the amp harder? Good active electronics should allow you do this without changing your tone much...in theory...

You might consider modding your bass (if it's possible with your current pickups and electronics) with an active/passive switch?

Yeah, maybe different tubes might be a good thing to explore. Nice thing about low wattage amps is that you don't usually have a lot of tubes so swapping them out won't cost your a tremendous amount of money (unless you get into fancy vintage NOS tubes, etc...)

I'm not against OD pedals (I love mine), but it seems to me like that would be completely defeating the purpose of a rig like yours. I think you're on the right track...


-John

[i_got_a_mohawk]

Wouldn't think the bass is the problem, never had any problem getting a driven sound using my atk.

THD Hotplate? But not too sure how well those really work.

[easternbull]

Originally Posted by blastjv

Maybe just lowering the volume on your bass will allow you to push the power section of the amp harder?

I'm not against OD pedals (I love mine), but it seems to me like that would be completely defeating the purpose of a rig like yours. I think you're on the right track...


-John

Thanks for the feedback guys!

I've tried lowering the volume on my ATK to a bare minimum, but not much difference. Don't get me wrong he LB30 has all the warmth/woofines and a bit of growl, just want a tad more. It was this clip that convinced me to pull the trigger:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vg04AoqeX-4

My ATK and LB growls but not like that!

You are right regarding the OD pedals, the whole point with the LB30 was to keep the signal as warm/organic before recording.

[BbbyBld]

A 30 watt amp through a 210 is too loud??

I've had pretty good luck recording with a tube guitar amp a few times.

EDIT: Made this satire song ("The Me Who is Me") for a friend's independent film in 3 hours on a Saturday. It's a miked, overdriven guitar combo w/active bass. We "de-cranked" the amp for the bridge section. With guitar speakers, you also get that tortured speaker growl in addition to the overdrive at lower volume.

http://www.tearysockets.com/media.html

You're going to need SOME volume to work with to benefit from studio miking, otherwise you may as well record direct.

Make yourself a 1 cu. ft. sealed 1x10.

Disconnect one of the 10's in your 210.

At the power level you're at, you could make yourself an L-pad attenuator pretty cheap if you have some basic soldering skills.

To make the amp overdrive at a lower volume, crank up the low and mid EQ to max.

Record cleaner with your tube amp and add in the extra wool after the fact. This works great if you are using Ableton or Sonar. I find that this helps to keep the bass track from mushing out.

[easternbull]

This little bastard has plenty of clean headroom, but the set up is not too loud, I just can't get it to break up/distort as much as I would like. Even with the LB30's gain/volume cranked and the ATK's bass,treble and master volume backed of to a minimum with only the mids cranked it still does not brake up like in the clip.

DI the gorgeous clean tone and adding som growl later might be not be a bad option.

thanks again for all the responses.

[blastjv]

Oh, I don't think I understood you. I thought you were trying to get it to OD at low volume, meaning with the gain and/or volume a lower settings.

Now that I understand you better I'd suggest:

- Different tubes rated to break up earlier (lots of tube sellers rate their tubes for 'high gain')

- try making a sealed 1x10 cabinet using a Jensen Mod 10 50 (they're cheap and well liked for the vintage SVT tone)

- Run a clean boost in front of the amp. I don't think reducing the volume or power of your active bass is going to help, in fact hitting the front of your amp harder with a stronger signal is probably exactly what you need to do.


-JV

[easternbull]

Just to clarify things, the LB30 has no separate gain knob. the gain and mastervolume are one in the same. So in order to crank the gain and not loose whats left of my hearing or damage the SVT210AV, I have to roll back on the ATK's master volume.

http://www.ashdownmusic.com/bass/detail.asp?ID=229

[ninepoundjammer]

Likewise, I'm a little confused.

If you crank the amp, is that the tone you want, just too loud? If this is for studio work and it's just too loud, I'd build an amplifier enclosure -- box big enough for the amp and mic with some sound proofing. This is a common thing to do in the studio to crank guitar amps.

I suppose you can change tubes or look into other mods to chase the sound you're looking for, but I have a feeling it's still going to require more volume than you desire.

So, the first question is whether that amp is capable of producing the tone you want as is.

[ninepoundjammer]

Originally Posted by easternbull

Just to clarify things, the LB30 has no separate gain knob. the gain and mastervolume are one in the same. So in order to crank the gain and not loose whats left of my hearing or damage the SVT210AV, I have to roll back on the ATK's master volume.

http://www.ashdownmusic.com/bass/detail.asp?ID=229

You're worried about damaging a 2x10 with a 30 watt amp?

[blastjv]

A 200 watt 210, no less...

Yeah, build an enclosure, or throw that badboy in a closet with a mic...


-John

[christw]

Try an Epiphone Valve Jr. It might just be the ticket. It sounded so sick running one of those balls out through a tiny 110 or 112 with my old Jazz Bass. Not loud enough to hurt your hearing and oodles of OD. (Too much to use even!) You can find the combos or the heads for ~$80-$100 used. The heads also have that nice 4, 8, or 16 ohm output.

[easternbull]

cheers for taking time to help out,

Don't let the 30watts fool you this little bastard is LOUD! Honestly I've never dared or had the need to crank the ATK and the LB30 at the same time. I guess I'm a wuzz but my ears started to hurt and the 450€ SVT210AV started to give me the impression to back off, no honk or reduction in sound qualilty, I just had a gut feeling not to push it anymore. Either my ears or the cab was going to give in.

When jamming with a drummer with my previous 80w combo I've never been close to the volumes I can reproduce with this rig. Not that that drummer hits like Chuck Bisquits(splinters flying everywhere).

[jpTron]

Originally Posted by christw

Try an Epiphone Valve Jr. It might just be the ticket. It sounded so sick running one of those balls out through a tiny 110 or 112 with my old Jazz Bass. Not loud enough to hurt your hearing and oodles of OD. (Too much to use even!) You can find the combos or the heads for ~$80-$100 used. The heads also have that nice 4, 8, or 16 ohm output.

Werd. Came into this thread to post this.

[easternbull]

Originally Posted by ninepoundjammer

So, the first question is whether that amp is capable of producing the tone you want as is.

Love the tone I'm getting just want a little more drive on a few tracks. The stuff we are working on is instrumental jazz/prog/hard rock. Just love the way a growly bass tone cuts through the mix with a warm/vintage kit and clean fender twin deluxe reverb.

[easternbull]

Originally Posted by christw

Try an Epiphone Valve Jr. It might just be the ticket. It sounded so sick running one of those balls out through a tiny 110 or 112 with my old Jazz Bass. Not loud enough to hurt your hearing and oodles of OD. (Too much to use even!) You can find the combos or the heads for ~$80-$100 used. The heads also have that nice 4, 8, or 16 ohm output.

this is a realy interesting and economical tip. I'm actully in the process of returning a fulltone bassdriver, and for the price I paid I could exchange it for a valvejunior or even one of these:

http://www.vhtamp.com/avsp16h.html

anyone tried them, handwired in china, but alltube and cheaper than an OD pedal. Would be nice to try and blend the LB30 tone with one of these smaller amps to get a dry/wet rig set up.

[Awesomenaut]

Turn the volume down and put a linear power booster at the end of your signal chain? Hotter signal going to to give you tube distortion while at a lower volume...right?

[Hopkins]

Attenuator?

[recreate.me]

Ebay has a whole bunch of attenuators that you put in your effects loop, the LB has the send return these things are basically an extra volume knob. You EQ your signal, and this things reduces it way down, then you crank your master Vol until you get the crunch you want.
http://cgi.ebay.ca/GUITAR-AMP-ATTENU...#ht_1484wt_932

I plan on needing one if i get an Orange Terror Bass... There is also Tube ones for about 150

[phatbass]

Originally Posted by easternbull

the ATK's bass,treble and master volume backed of to a minimum with only the mids cranked

You need to have the volume on the ATK max'ed to be driving the amp harder.