Tubes Or Solid State, A Perspective

[ubersku]

Ok, the first perspective is mine! You're welcome to offer what works for you. Isn't diversity great?!

Really, doesn’t it all come down to where you place value; value in time, effort, money and sound preference?

Seems like this is a common thread on this forum: “How do I get “that” sound and how much do I have to spend to get it?” When you’re in high school and you’re broke, no dang job, you make do. That theory hasn’t changed much. If now you’re an adult and still broke in this economy, you still make do with what you can. If you can afford to play in the game, then you need to make choices. I think we get to do that in this country.

With that said, we all buy different guitars, different effects, so on. It’s what we want – it’s our pursuit for the Holy Grail “sound” we have hard somewhere and want to have as our own.

I learned on an old Kustom guitar head in the 70’s – no I don’t remember the model, nor do I care. It didn’t take me long to move to SS due to lack of high school money and that my friend took his Kustom to Cali and I needed something right away. I stayed the SS route ever since. Then I remember playing a VR a long time ago and remembering I wish I had $800 to buy one (yes, it was a long time ago!) Oh well, some day. I have spent mucho airgead on effects gadgets trying to find that one sound in my head. Have not found it …yet. Still looking.

Jump ahead 35 years; I decided to go back and try tube. I jumped in and got a Peavey VB-2 a couple years ago. Heavy, yes. Sound? Really sweet. Two days after I had it, I come off standby to a nice buzz and accompanying blue glow, then POP. Dead. Crap. Into the warranty shop. Three weeks later got it home. Played it for two weeks flawlessly. During that two week time period I incurred a spinal injury from lifting it and now can’t feel my right heel – never will again. Well that sucks. Whatever. At least I can walk. Gigging one night, second song/first set: buzzzzzzz, crackle, POP. Dead. F&*^%$#@!!@#%^^*. Took back to dealer and got my money back. OK, let’s buy more SS gear to go hunting for “that sound.” Did some research to see what would fit me best. Bought a nice Markbass F1. Rockin’! Nice. I’ll just use this and save my back. Been plying the F1 ever since. Then about January I went into a GC in PDX to look and more pedals and gear and gadgets and decided to plug into a Nam VR in the store. Holy Grail. At least for me. There was that sound I remembered back in high school. Sheeeoooooooot!

Do I trust the VR and her tubulesence? So far. Am I going to have to do maintenance? Yes. Tube replacement costs - not very often though, plus I have the replacement tubes that never went into the Peavey hangin' around. Yes! Will I risk injury? Oh hell yes. I tore my right rotator a couple weeks ago and am going in for surgery in two weeks. Whatever. I’ll recover. Aint the first time they’ve cut me open!

Here's what works for me: I keep the F1 as a backup – just in case. From what I have read over the years and have heard from folks who own them here in TB-land, the VRs are very reliable, and oh-my-gawd the sound. Full, round, clean – like me! Time will tell, though.

BTW, I sold all my pedals and effects. Play raw and love it! Makes me a better player, IMO.

Now just need to get an upright just like in my dream the other night. Damn, I was pretty good, too.

[PSPookie]

I like both tube and SS but my preference betwixt the two changes from time to time, so . . . hybrids FTW!

[BassmanPaul]

Never mind. - for the moment!

[shadow_FIX]

Ideally, I want a tube amp. Right now it's just not practical for me though. I can't afford to go through the "snap, crackle, pop" episodes you're describing above. I know many tube amps are pretty reliable, but it's just not something I want to risk. I had a few hybrids and those were pretty cool, but I basically sold everything off and consolidated into a Markbass LMIII to be a "jack of all trades" amp. I pair it with a 2x10 or a 4x10, and that does everything for me.

Let's just hope my 100lb. Aguilar 4x10 doesn't injure me for quite some time, because it just sounds so good!

[seamonkey]

Well just keep in mind that Ampeg SVT VR has solid-state clipping diodes in the signal path.
On early CL's the left these off and issued a field bulletin to add them back in.
http://www.amparchives.com/Amp%20Arc...s/0738_001.pdf

They may call them "clamping" - but diodes don't clamp in this configuration, they clip. soft clip, but clip.
Try some back to back clipping diodes in your F1 effects loop and see if you like it you might save your back for another decade.

[ubersku]

Originally Posted by seamonkey

Well just keep in mind that Ampeg SVT VR has solid-state clipping diodes in the signal path.
On early CL's the left these off and issued a field bulletin to add them back in.
http://www.amparchives.com/Amp%20Arc...s/0738_001.pdf

They may call them "clamping" - but diodes don't clamp in this configuration, they clip. soft clip, but clip.
Try some back to back clipping diodes in your F1 effects loop and see if you like it you might save your back for another decade.

Thanks for the suggestion, but I am done spending money and toying around for a while. I'm pretty happy with my recent choice with the VR.

[Phalex]

For me, 99% of the time my bass rig is my stage monitor, and the audiance hears me through the PA.

Holy grail tone? Bah! As long as I can hear me over the drummer and he can hear me I'm happy. I EQ my stage tone with a bit more midrange than what I'd like for FOH just for that reason.

So, my ideal rig light and powerful enough to be heard on a big stage. It should also be capable of handling a small venue on its own with no PA support, but I don't need to sound like the voice of God in a situation like that anyway.


SS for me. Even better SS combo that weighs about 50#!!

[JimmyM]

i'm just going to stay out of threads like this from now on. i have my preferences, but i respect everyone else's choices. but it really seems to anger some people that there are some of us who prefer tube amps to the point where they deliberately post misinformation, and in some cases, out and out lies. i think one qualification for having an opinion about it is actually playing through a tube amp, but that doesn't seem to stop some from talking like they have intimate knowledge of them without so much as having plugged into one at the store.

i have owned and will continue to own and use both, but tubes will always be where it's at for me. but for some reason, this doesn't sit well with many on here, so all i'll say is decide for yourself what's best for you, and don't worry about what others think. bass players in general are way too far up each other's asses when it comes to gear. i find it offensive in every way.

[greenboy]

Originally Posted by Phalex

Holy grail tone? Bah! As long as I can hear me over the drummer and he can hear me I'm happy. I EQ my stage tone with a bit more midrange than what I'd like for FOH just for that reason.

So, my ideal rig light and powerful enough to be heard on a big stage. It should also be capable of handling a small venue on its own with no PA support, but I don't need to sound like the voice of God in a situation like that anyway.

One time in particular I had the Voice Of God thing going on and didn't even know it until later. To be frank I was frustrated because I could barely hear myself and what I did hear was mostly upper mids and treble - yech! I could sure hear the drums and guitars though - they had more body than my bass did! My rig placement was as good as it was gonna get on that small stage and I could actually feel that low end moving that mushy stage under my feet like I had a butt-kicker on a sheet of rubber or something.

But people on the dance floor seemed to be having a great time so I went out there and I heard IT: the actual VOICE OF GOD was coming off my bass rig in all its glory! Hallelujah! All that missing warmth and depth and punch was right there all along.

This is not a tube or SS issue, by the way ; }

[greenboy]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

but it really seems to anger some people that there are some of us who prefer tube amps to the point where they deliberately post misinformation, and in some cases, out and out lies.

Do not feel alone. Regardless of what camp or what issue, there are people who like to mess things up. Don't know what's wrong with them. No breast feeding at a young age? No breast feeding at an older age? Dunno. Sure some sickies around though. But hey, as long as your, uh, feeding situation is fine, enjoy the ride!

[michaelgilleran]

They both sound good to me--different tones for different settings

But personally, the tone benefits of tubes dont warrant the extra maintenance and the cost of retubing. Especially considering, most places I play, Im DI'd anyways, so Im the only one hearing my amp

As for tube haters; everyones a critic

[coreyfyfe]

Originally Posted by seamonkey

Well just keep in mind that Ampeg SVT VR has solid-state clipping diodes in the signal path.
On early CL's the left these off and issued a field bulletin to add them back in.
http://www.amparchives.com/Amp%20Arc...s/0738_001.pdf

They may call them "clamping" - but diodes don't clamp in this configuration, they clip. soft clip, but clip.
Try some back to back clipping diodes in your F1 effects loop and see if you like it you might save your back for another decade.

The point of the diodes there are to ensure the signal from the preamp isn't over loading the input of the power section. If you drive the pre-amp gain too high then the diodes come into play, otherwise they don't do a thing. That's why they're referred to as "clamping" and not clipping. Different names for the same thing yes, but the intent in the circuit is different.

[seamonkey]

Originally Posted by coreyfyfe

The point of the diodes there are to ensure the signal from the preamp isn't over loading the input of the power section. If you drive the pre-amp gain too high then the diodes come into play, otherwise they don't do a thing. That's why they're referred to as "clamping" and not clipping. Different names for the same thing yes, but the intent in the circuit is different.

The diodes start breaking over at .6 volts.
I thinking they are calling them clamping so they to avoid being called on an "all tube path."

Put a pair of diodes in your effects loop and listen to what happens.

But don't believe me, listen to an expert
Bugera all tube head

[coreyfyfe]

Originally Posted by seamonkey

But don't believe me, listen to an expert
Bugera all tube head

Which expert? JohnK and BString who both say they look like they're providing protection in the slave circuit? Or blocking DC leaking due to the lack of a coupling cap after the molex connector? Or maybe Fdeck who says they're protecting the input signal? Or Agedhorse who says that the soft clipping of the input due to the diodes combined with clipping in the power amp combine to make the overdriven sound of the amp but that he couldn't be sure because the amp was a clever design and there was probably more than meets the eye there?

Or maybe I'll take the advice of the tech that I spoke with who said that they prevent the power amp from drawing a boat load of current by limiting the amount of over driven input passed from the pre? All of it seems logical, and none of it makes a difference unless you're driving your amp to distortion, which many (probably the majority) of us don't do, despite your apparent preconceived notion that all we want from tube amps is distortion.

[UncleFluffy]

Originally Posted by coreyfyfe

Which expert? JohnK and BString who both say they look like they're providing protection in the slave circuit? Or blocking DC leaking due to the lack of a coupling cap after the molex connector? Or maybe Fdeck who says they're protecting the input signal? Or Agedhorse who says that the soft clipping of the input due to the diodes combined with clipping in the power amp combine to make the overdriven sound of the amp but that he couldn't be sure because the amp was a clever design and there was probably more than meets the eye there?

Or maybe I'll take the advice of the tech that I spoke with who said that they prevent the power amp from drawing a boat load of current by limiting the amount of over driven input passed from the pre? All of it seems logical, and none of it makes a difference unless you're driving your amp to distortion, which many (probably the majority) of us don't do, despite your apparent preconceived notion that all we want from tube amps is distortion.

What about putting a 'scope on them at normal operating levels and seeing if they're coming into play? Easy enough to spot, unless you're running a dirt box upstream of the amp.

[chadds]

You know?........ Never mind.

[Pilgrim]

I don't care what's inside the head - even peanut butter - as long as it sounds good to me. Tube vs solid state = whoinhellcares.

If it sounds good, it IS good. Scientific measurement is irrelevant - only your ears count.

[seamonkey]

Originally Posted by coreyfyfe

Which expert? JohnK and BString who both say they look like they're providing protection in the slave circuit? Or blocking DC leaking due to the lack of a coupling cap after the molex connector? Or maybe Fdeck who says they're protecting the input signal? Or Agedhorse who says that the soft clipping of the input due to the diodes combined with clipping in the power amp combine to make the overdriven sound of the amp but that he couldn't be sure because the amp was a clever design and there was probably more than meets the eye there?

Or maybe I'll take the advice of the tech that I spoke with who said that they prevent the power amp from drawing a boat load of current by limiting the amount of over driven input passed from the pre? All of it seems logical, and none of it makes a difference unless you're driving your amp to distortion, which many (probably the majority) of us don't do, despite your apparent preconceived notion that all we want from tube amps is distortion.

Agedhorse who did a very careful walk on eggshells. That's the post the link opens to.

The diodes start to conduct at .6 V
What levels are needed to drive the power amp to full level? Less than +- .6V - not likely.

No other designer would ever put diodes in a signal path like this unless they expected them to clip.
You could just take them out and listen.

It's subjective if you think you hear clean. Measure it. What you think is clean may in fact have distortion/compression/eq - it's even added to high quality amps from the pre-amp.

[seamonkey]

Originally Posted by UncleFluffy

What about putting a 'scope on them at normal operating levels and seeing if they're coming into play? Easy enough to spot, unless you're running a dirt box upstream of the amp.

That's all it would take.

[Jim C]

To the OP:
I've played Fender and Ampeg tube heads for many years without an amp going down; sorry to hear about your bad luck
I have had tube amps start to make some noises and those amps were then serviced before a real problem developed (the usual culprits being tubes, capacitors, or resistors); thankfully I've never had catastrophic failure or the expense of and output transformer; My old V4B was used for over 25 years and recently sold with the original tubes; never had the thing apart and I bought it used

I use a reasonably clean tone
My SVT has a very 3-D tonality and natural compression which I like; could not duplicate this in a lighter package such as SWR, Trace Elliot, LMII, SVP / power amp, etc. although I tried for many years
Found the exception (for me) an a Mesa Walkabout - 300 watts / 13 lbs - hope this helps
PS - Was working out last week and lost the feeling in my right heel; thought it was from sitting in a cramped airline seat that night; all feeling returned a few days later; never knew you could injure a heel from lifting; thanks for that
TB - music and health in 1 twisted forum