Is two 100w amps the same as one 200w amp...

[Colonel Monk]

...in terms of volume and stage power?

I have an Ampeg V4BH that I've had about a year. I love it, but can't play a show in the sweet spot without PA support.

Would like to slave an identical head and wondering if that will give me the 200w ampeg we're always talking about...

Yeah moving more air will help but I don't have any large cabs and would like to keep my largest cabs to 4x10s etc.

I also have three rigs in different locations I play. So having another tube head would let me leave them set up.....

Thanks,

CM

[Mr. Foxen]

Same in that means nothing to volume until you know what cabs are involved.

[Colonel Monk]

Huh?

Various cabs at various locations, including:

12 Mesa Scout
15 Mesa Scout
2x10 Eden xlt
15 Eden xlt
Ampeg 4x8

Back to original question, seems it can be answered regardless of cabs involved. I'm aware that using 2 amps requires min 2 cabs....

[billfitzmaurice]

Watts mean nothing. Decibels mean everything. If you want significantly more output that means 6dB more than you have now, and in the vast majority of cases that's not a matter of watts, that's a matter of speakers. If you add another V4 and another identical cab that will give you 6dB more output, but before you do adding just the second cab alone may very well give you all the additional dBs that you need.

[Colonel Monk]

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

Watts mean nothing. Decibels mean everything. If you want significantly more output that means 6dB more than you have now, and in the vast majority of cases that's not a matter of watts, that's a matter of speakers. If you add another V4 and another identical cab that will give you 6dB more output, but before you do adding just the second cab alone may very well give you all the additional dBs that you need.

Yeah, OK, gotcha. As a mechanical engineer I'm normally adding too much detail to my posts and people get bored then they don't respond.

Was thinking that we'd all approach the answer from the standpoint of the cabinets being equal.

I've been told that these lower watt heads will really fill a room with 810 or two 810s but I sold my 810s years ago.

Anyone have experience doing this?

CM

[Alex1984]

Yes, a V4B would fill the room just fine with an 810. Better than a 200W amp paired with a 410.

[JMac4strngr]

I use an early 70's V4 with a SVT 810 E, and it gets the job done (nice full and loud if You want it to be). You could probably get almost the same result with a bit less cab, as I also have a (kinda rare cab)SVT 412 E and it'll get plenty loud with it as well. The 412 doesn't take up near as much realestate, If that is a concern.

If an 810 is more than what You wanna deal with, You might try a 610 or 215 with it to see if that'll do what You need.

[Colonel Monk]

I suppose I should try a couple of 4x10s - they are small enough for me to handle alone, as long as there's no stairs involved.

Yeah I haven't had the opportunity to play the V4BH thru alot of speaker. I have played it thru an Eden 410 and 115 at the same time - wasn't enough volume in the sweet spot for a hard hitting drummer.

My thought was that there are alot of amp mfrs out there that do 200W heads, I was curious if the master/slave of 2 100W heads is essentially the same.

[JMac4strngr]

No, as You couldn't connect both amps to the same cab without causing some major equipment damage. (IMO)Your best bet would be going with the bigger cab. You could probably find another used cab for less than what You're gonna spend on another identical amp, for which You still require the use of another cab.

Oh yea, (IMO) one 810 is by far easier to move than two 410's. Most 810's are set up with a "towel bar handle" and tilt back wheels, so You can wheel'em like a handtruck. They even have skid rails on the back, which are handy for loading and/or sliding up/down stairs. I will add however, if You're gonna move one up/down a long flight of stairs that it's a good idea to have a helping hand around.

[Bass_Pounder]

Originally Posted by Colonel Monk

Yeah I haven't had the opportunity to play the V4BH thru alot of speaker. I have played it thru an Eden 410 and 115 at the same time - wasn't enough volume in the sweet spot for a hard hitting drummer.

Thats because the mixed pairing of a 1X15 and a 4X10 is a bad combination.

If you had played through two 4X10's, it would have been different.

[hdracer]

Hook it to two fEarfulls & rock the place.
They are a lot easier to move around then a 810

[RickenBoogie]

The question of "slaving" the 2 amps hasn't been directly answered, so, essentially there's a couple of ways to go about it, and neither is ideal. One would be to run preamp OUT to poweramp IN, but this nets you the same 100 watts. The other way requires a cab to be connected to each head, and I think the point is, if you're using 2 cabs, the 2nd head becomes moot, as the volume is really more dependent on the additional spkrs, rather than the "extra" 100 watts. So in short, the best bet would be the larger spkr cab, or 2 4x10's no matter what else you do with another amp.

[Colonel Monk]

Originally Posted by JMac4strngr

No, as You couldn't connect both amps to the same cab without causing some major equipment damage. (IMO)Your best bet would be going with the bigger cab. You could probably find another used cab for less than what You're gonna spend on another identical amp, for which You still require the use of another cab.

Oh yea, (IMO) one 810 is by far easier to move than two 410's. Most 810's are set up with a "towel bar handle" and tilt back wheels, so You can wheel'em like a handtruck. They even have skid rails on the back, which are handy for loading and/or sliding up/down stairs. I will add however, if You're gonna move one up/down a long flight of stairs that it's a good idea to have a helping hand around.

You misunderstand. As stated above I'm fully aware you can't connect two amps to the same rig.

I sure didn't mean to give the impression that I'm new to the bass - I own 4 different amp rigs and have owned twice that many in the past, I've just never tried to slave amps together. I'm trying to be more modular with my rig. I play in two different bands (sometimes 3) and have rigs at 3 different practice locations. So being modular and being able to bring part of a rig to a small gig is important.

Yeah, dunno man - I've owned two 810s before (as well as SVT II) and didn't find it particularly easy to move around unless it was out of a pickup truck into a club the same floor as the parking lot. They suck going up and down stairs and you need a big vehicle to move them.

[Colonel Monk]

Originally Posted by Bass_Pounder

Thats because the mixed pairing of a 1X15 and a 4X10 is a bad combination.

If you had played through two 4X10's, it would have been different.

They are two cabs I happen to have at one practice location. The 115 is mine but the 410 belongs to someone else. They aren't a part of my live rig.

[SactoBass]

Originally Posted by Colonel Monk

...in terms of volume and stage power?

I have an Ampeg V4BH that I've had about a year. I love it, but can't play a show in the sweet spot without PA support.

Would like to slave an identical head and wondering if that will give me the 200w ampeg we're always talking about...

Yeah moving more air will help but I don't have any large cabs and would like to keep my largest cabs to 4x10s etc.

I also have three rigs in different locations I play. So having another tube head would let me leave them set up.....

Thanks,

CM

Colonel,

I have found that it sometimes helps to take things to an extreme to make a point or help understand something. Take your 100 watt amp rig for example. Then compare that to one hundred 1-watt amp rigs. Still a hundred watts, right? Would they put out the same SPL's? A 1-watt amp rig isn't going to put out sufficient bass frequencies, so one hundred 1-watt amps won't either (imagine playing your bass through one hundred itty bitty transistor radios). But a single 100-watt amp will put out enough bass energy. A single 200-watt amp will put out even more low frequency energy, which is even better for bass.

So, my answer to your question is no, a pair of 100-watt amps do not equal a single 200-watt amp.

Certainly, having a pair of 100-watt amp rigs (each with their own set of speakers) will put out more SPL's than just one 100-watt amp rig, as you will be moving more air. But it wouldn't be the same as running a single 200-watt amp rig (the 200-watt amp rig would generate more low frequency information, but wouldn't be as loud as a pair of 100-watt rigs).

Disclaimer: All of the above is "in my opinion." I'm a civil engineer, not an electrical or acoustical engineer, so if someone like Bill FM chimes in and corrects me, be sure to listen to him, not me.

[Colonel Monk]

Originally Posted by RickenBoogie

The question of "slaving" the 2 amps hasn't been directly answered, so, essentially there's a couple of ways to go about it, and neither is ideal. One would be to run preamp OUT to poweramp IN, but this nets you the same 100 watts. The other way requires a cab to be connected to each head, and I think the point is, if you're using 2 cabs, the 2nd head becomes moot, as the volume is really more dependent on the additional spkrs, rather than the "extra" 100 watts. So in short, the best bet would be the larger spkr cab, or 2 4x10's no matter what else you do with another amp.

OK this is the closer reply to my question, so let me rephrase it again.

First, this is the newer 100W tube head, so it has a slave out (which does not disconnect signal to power amp) and it also has a power amp in.

So if I slaved a second amp, I'm taking the slave out from master amp (again, a duplicate preamp signal) to the power amp in on second slave amp.

I must have two cabs, I know this. Let's assume that they are both Ampeg 410s for simplicity's sake.

All things equal, do I get more volume from having 100W of power to each of the 410s VERSUS having 100W split between two cabinets?

It seems to me that I would. If not, can somebody explain why the extra amp doesn't make a difference? From what Rickenboogie said the addition of a second amp doesn't make a difference, only the addition of the speaker cab does.

C'mon back.

CM

[JHAz]

Originally Posted by SactoBass

Colonel,

I have found that it sometimes helps to take things to an extreme to make a point or help understand something. Take your 100 watt amp rig for example. Then compare that to one hundred 1-watt amp rigs. Still a hundred watts, right? Would they put out the same SPL's? A 1-watt amp rig isn't going to put out sufficient bass frequencies, so one hundred 1-watt amps won't either (imagine playing your bass through one hundred itty bitty transistor radios). But a single 100-watt amp will put out enough bass energy. A single 200-watt amp will put out even more low frequency energy, which is even better for bass.

So, my answer to your question is no, a pair of 100-watt amps do not equal a single 200-watt amp.

Certainly, having a pair of 100-watt amp rigs (each with their own set of speakers) will put out more SPL's than just one 100-watt amp rig, as you will be moving more air. But it wouldn't be the same as running a single 200-watt amp rig (the 200-watt amp rig would generate more low frequency information, but wouldn't be as loud as a pair of 100-watt rigs).

Disclaimer: All of the above is "in my opinion." I'm a civil engineer, not an electrical or acoustical engineer, so if someone like Bill FM chimes in and corrects me, be sure to listen to him, not me.

So with a 95 dB speaker cab, if I'm playing at 95 dB (thus using only 1 watt) I have no bass? I'll have to get my hearing checked.

Two identical rigs (leaving aside phasing issues) should be exactly as loud as on rig with twice the power and twice the speakers (all other things being equal).

[Alex1984]

You can try to get a pair of 410s and see if that's better. The 2 amps thing, in theory, should work, but I don't see too much of a point and would rather add speakers.

So to elaborate, I believe your train of thought is right, but it's not cost-efficient and I think there are better alternatives that'd allow your head to put out quite a bit more than you'd expect.

[Oobly]

Originally Posted by Colonel Monk

All things equal, do I get more volume from having 100W of power to each of the 410s VERSUS having 100W split between two cabinets?

Yes.

[Luckie]

Originally Posted by JHAz

So with a 95 dB speaker cab, if I'm playing at 95 dB (thus using only 1 watt) I have no bass? I'll have to get my hearing checked.

Two identical rigs (leaving aside phasing issues) should be exactly as loud as on rig with twice the power and twice the speakers (all other things being equal).

That does assume of course that higher wattage amps don't behave differently than lower wattage ones.
Its possible that's the case, but I'm not very knowledgeable.