Two 2x10 cabs, vertical - one man's awakening.

[esa372]

I have been playing a mix of 10s and 15s for years - either 4x10 & 2x15, or (more recently) 2x10 & 1x15. I never had any complaints or criticisms of my sound - lots of compliments, though.

I had to EQ the rigs quite a bit for different rooms and venues, and sometimes would use a crossover to split the signal to feed different frequencies to the 10s and 15s. This seemed to work out just fine.

After joining TalkBass, I began to learn about things I never considered before - chiefly, dispersion. I'd read things by the resident knowledgeable tech-heads, and (through experimentation) came to find out that all that they said about dispersion and matching drivers is true - not just theoretically, but a noticeable reality in real-world applications.

Since I cannot yet afford to get the fEARful cabs of my dreams, I picked up a second, matching 2x10 cabinet, and played the four 10s (stacked vertically) side-by-side with the ol' 2x10+1x15 stack.

Now, I had always thought that my rig sounded really good - and it did... with some pretty aggressive EQing and/or signal splitting - but the 4x10 vertical stack sounds surprisingly better, with no EQ at all!

The four matched drivers sound fuller, more harmonically rich, have much more low end, and are noticeably louder. When I switch back to the 2x10+1x15 rig for comparison, it sounds boxy, honky, and a little lacking; not so much UMPH! (No wonder I had to EQ so much...)

So, until I can swing the dough for those fEARfuls, I am a bona-fide, converted, true believer in the vertical 4x10 stack, and will be using it for the duration.

I just wanted to share my findings with the TB community. I know questions come up quite a bit about these different configurations, and maybe this will help a bit.

Thanks to all who share their wealth of knowledge here. I've learned a lot.

~esa


PS - For the record, the cabs I'm using are the Eden D210XLT and the D115XL.
PPS - If anyone is looking for an Eden D115XL (less than a year old), PM me...

[Johnny Crab]

Two ACME B2's stacked vertically opened my ears quite a bit too.
It can and does work.

[mam1862]

That is good to hear. That just verifies what many say, which is to match cabs when adding a second one. I have a Markbass NY604 and I just found a second one which I am waiting for. I have tried with some other cabs and did not like what I heard. I am anxious to hear the two together. Thanks for the update.

[Jeff Scott]

Glad to hear this!

Back in the '90s when I had my two EV B-210 cabinets, I always stacked them vertically, it just sounded right!

[Sartori]

Yeah, the information here on talkbass was one of the reasons I eventually ditched my 1x15 + 2x10 setup and switched to using a 2x15. And yes, there's a marked improvement in sound, with less EQing necessary, for me, too.

[JimmyM]

That is exactly the way I hear 210/115 rigs, too. I've never liked the sound of the way they matched up, even before I know why on a scientific level.

[rodl2005]

I think I've only used a 210 / 115 rig once in my life & it was a home made 210 with an EV TL 15", so I was never impressed either.
I'd've thought maybe the PF210/PF115 rig might be a nice set up, with the ability of a few options.
But, gotta agree, 2 x 15"s always pleases

[MysticMichael]

Thanks for sharing, Esa. I've learned a lot here too.

IMHO, it is this very kind of sharing of "best practices" experiences and recommendations that provides some of the most valuable service that TalkBass has to offer. For me, it's what this place is really all about. Together we will continue to participate in the ongoing evolution and development of our favorite instrument - and help to define its role(s) in new forms of music yet to come...

So all you knowledgeable opinion leaders? (You know who you are.) Thanks a bunch for helping to lead the rest of us out of the Dark Ages. You guys rock!

MM

[Thrill-House]

I recently bought a markbass 2x10 cab, with intention of buying another cab in the future. This story further pushes me toward another 2x10 and stacking them vertically.

[WhoDidTheElf]

This makes me wonder about cabs like the Mesa PH1200 where it has four 10's and one 15 in it. I don't know about the internal goodies of that cab, like if it has a cross over for the 15 and 10's or if its just straight up, but it seems like a cab like that might be a shot in the foot no?

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by WhoDidTheElf

This makes me wonder about cabs like the Mesa PH1200 where it has four 10's and one 15 in it. I don't know about the internal goodies of that cab, like if it has a cross over for the 15 and 10's or if its just straight up, but it seems like a cab like that might be a shot in the foot no?

Some people seem to like it, but I don't. And it's running each set of speakers full range. Back in the 90's, Ampeg made a cab with a 410 and 115. Thank God it had separate jacks for each half. I always just ran the 410 half by itself when I had the misfortune to get one supplied on a couple gigs. Total cardboard when you ran both halves. It didn't last long, though, and I never see them anymore.

[WhoDidTheElf]

I saw one of those cabs floating around on the local CL for a couple hundred, was tempted but thought better of it.

I've played a PH1000 with Mesa 400+ at a local shop. Only thing I can remember was the mids were like cannons and the top was smooth. Though it could have been the closet they stuck me in to test it.

[KJung]

IMO and a lot of IME, you are mostly hearing the different voicing of the cabs versus anything 'magic' with a '210 vertical stack'.

This is a common mistake when interpreting the causal relationship between the rig and what you hear.

Nothing wrong with vertically stacking 210's, but depending on the specific 210's, a 210/115 stack can sound much worse, or much better

There would be no reason whatsoever that a 2 x 210 stack would have 'more low end and be more harmonically rich' than a 210/115 stack, other than the drivers and cabs were very different. If you experienced MUCH more low end, my guess is that the 115 was wired incorrectly and the cabs were out of phase.

To test this, just stack your 210's horizontally and compare. Vertically stacking your 210's will give you a bit better upper midrange dispersion (you could do the same thing by turning your 210 on its side on top of your 115, but not much else compared to your other conigurations.

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by WhoDidTheElf

This makes me wonder about cabs like the Mesa PH1200 where it has four 10's and one 15 in it. I don't know about the internal goodies of that cab, like if it has a cross over for the 15 and 10's or if its just straight up, but it seems like a cab like that might be a shot in the foot no?

Just like the ubiquitous 4x10/1x15 combination it's not a box that makes any sense from an engineering standpoint. A fifteen and one ten, crossed over so that they're aiding one another rather than fighting one another, is a worthwhile arrangement. One fifteen and four tens with no crossover, not so much.

[esa372]

Originally Posted by KJung

IMO and a lot of IME, you are mostly hearing the different voicing of the cabs versus anything 'magic' with a '210 vertical stack'.

What I heard in the difference seems to coincide with JimmyM's experience with various 2x10+1x15 stacks:

Originally Posted by JimmyM

That is exactly the way I hear 210/115 rigs, too. I've never liked the sound of the way they matched up, even before I know why on a scientific level.

Originally Posted by JimmyM

Total cardboard when you ran both halves.

Perhaps it's a phase-cancellation issue specific to this set-up...?

Originally Posted by KJung

If you experienced MUCH more low end, my guess is that the 115 was wired incorrectly and the cabs were out of phase.

I was so surprised by the additional low end response that I checked the wiring - everything was in phase.

Originally Posted by KJung

To test this, just stack your 210's horizontally and compare. Vertically stacking your 210's will give you a bit better upper midrange dispersion (you could do the same thing by turning your 210 on its side on top of your 115, but not much else compared to your other conigurations.

I tested both stacks in all possible configurations - the effect was the same. The reasons that I'm opting for vertical stacking over horizontal are the increased midrange dispersion, and having the speakers higher off of the ground.

Originally Posted by MysticMichael

So all you knowledgeable opinion leaders? (You know who you are.) Thanks a bunch for helping to lead the rest of us out of the Dark Ages. You guys rock!

+1!

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by esa372

I was so surprised by the additional low end response that I checked the wiring - everything was in phase.

No surprise here. Mixing drivers is like a box of chocolates: you never know what you're going to get. That includes less low end, even if the drivers are in correct polarity, because that doesn't mean that they'll be phase and time aligned. In fact you can pretty much count on that they won't. If mixing drivers made the slightest bit of sense hi-fi and PA would mix them too.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by esa372

What I heard in the difference seems to coincide with JimmyM's experience with various 2x10+1x15 stacks:Perhaps it's a phase-cancellation issue specific to this set-up...?


I was so surprised by the additional low end response that I checked the wiring - everything was in phase.


I tested both stacks in all possible configurations - the effect was the same. The reasons that I'm opting for vertical stacking over horizontal are the increased midrange dispersion, and having the speakers higher off of the ground.


+1!

Again, putting cabs in vertical configuration would have zero impact on the 'low end'. Adding a deeper voiced 210 versus a very midrangy 115 might

And, it is almost impossible to 'generalize' (as JimmyM does) about 'the sound or performance of a 210/115 rig. Just like any other cabs, there is HUGE variability across manufacturers, drivers, etc.

That being said, it sounds like that particular Eden 15 is a dog. Not surprised there. The single 112 Eden cab is awful also, tinny and mid honky.

Hey, if it sounds better, it sounds better, just don't attribute much of that to the 'vertical stack'. That will get a driver closer to your ear (again, you could do a similar thing stacking your 210 sideways on your 115), and will results in a bit better 'spread' of the upper end of your tone (that upper mid range between around 1K and when the tweeter kicks in).

[esa372]

Originally Posted by KJung

Hey, if it sounds better, it sounds better, just don't attribute much of that to the 'vertical stack'.

I'm not; I'm attributing it to the two 210 config, as opposed to the 210+115 - not the arrangements of the cabs.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by esa372

I'm not; I'm attributing it to the two 210 config, as opposed to the 210+115 - not the arrangements of the cabs.

Cool. I got caught up in the title of your thread I guess.

[1Drop]

If I stack my two GB neo 212's vertically, how in the world am I going to get my racked gbe 1200, compressor, p0wer conditoner and tuner way up there? better start practicing my clean and jerk and wearing a kidney belt!!