Is a two 2x10 the same as one 4x10?

[Jimmy Stump]

Wondering if anyone has experience, especially with Epifani cabs.

Would 2, 8 ohm 2x10 cabinets be essentially the same (or identical) as a single 4 ohm 4x10 with a 500 W head.

Opinions appreciated.

[bwoodman]

I think you'll get more bottom out of the 410 since it's a bigger box, but my preference has always been a pair of 8 ohm 210 cabs because it's easier to move them around. Most 410s are around 80 lbs - I have a much easier time with a 50 lb 210 + I stack them vertically most times for a smaller footprint and they sound good in that configuration. I have no experience with the Epi cabs. Of course your best bet is to go to a shop that has both rigs and a/b the 410 and pair of 210s.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Stump

Wondering if anyone has experience, especially with Epifani cabs.

Would 2, 8 ohm 2x10 cabinets be essentially the same (or identical) as a single 4 ohm 4x10 with a 500 W head.

Opinions appreciated.

In general, yes. Of course, even within the same brand family, the 210 version is rarely 'exactly half' of the 410. So, there will be slight differences due to tuning, internal volume, etc. If you are comparing two 210's from one company to a 410 of another, all bets are off.

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Stump

Wondering if anyone has experience, especially with Epifani cabs.

Would 2, 8 ohm 2x10 cabinets be essentially the same (or identical) as a single 4 ohm 4x10 with a 500 W head.

Opinions appreciated.

They'd be better. Two 2x10s allows close to vertical stacking of the drivers, which is a huge improvement over the 4x configuration in the mids and high frequencies. In the lows they'd be identical, assuming the same overall net cabinet size, drivers and tuning.

[Tone Meister]

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

They'd be better. Two 2x10s allows close to vertical stacking of the drivers, which is a huge improvement over the 4x configuration in the mids and high frequencies. In the lows they'd be identical, assuming the same overall net cabinet size, drivers and tuning.

+1

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Tone Meister

+1

For bass guitar amplification, and with a modern 410 with a tweeter, the impact of vertically stacking 2 x 210 versus using a 410 is the most ridiculously overstated thing on this site IMO and IME. Yes, you will get a bit better upper mid dispersion near field, that's about it.

Of course, with a speaker blaring closer to your ear, it will sound VERY different within a few feet of the cab, that's for sure.

[Jimmy Stump]

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

They'd be better. Two 2x10s allows close to vertical stacking of the drivers, which is a huge improvement over the 4x configuration in the mids and high frequencies. In the lows they'd be identical, assuming the same overall net cabinet size, drivers and tuning.

Seems like two, 2x10 Epi cabs would have "more box".

26.25 H x 23 W x 17.75 D for a 4x10. If you multiply each dimension, do you get the cubic inches? (this would be 10,716 c.i.). Not sure if that's the way to calculate cabinet space.

18.5 H x 23 W x 17.75 D for a 2x10 (= 7,553 c.i., multiplied by 2 would be 15,105 c.i.)

In practice then, two 2x10 would should produce more low end, given that the amount of box space is higher, and yet the drivers are identical in both?

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Stump

In practice then, two 2x10 would should produce more low end, given that the amount of box space is higher, and yet the drivers are identical in both?

Yes.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Stump

Seems like two, 2x10 Epi cabs would have "more box".

26.25 H x 23 W x 17.75 D for a 4x10. If you multiply each dimension, do you get the cubic inches? (this would be 10,716 c.i.). Not sure if that's the way to calculate cabinet space.

18.5 H x 23 W x 17.75 D for a 2x10 (= 7,553 c.i., multiplied by 2 would be 15,105 c.i.)

In practice then, two 2x10 would should produce more low end, given that the amount of box space is higher, and yet the drivers are identical in both?

This was my point of 'it depends' in my earlier post. In the Epi case, the 210UL is tuned lower than the 410UL... so two of them have a deeper and even more mid scooped tone than the 410UL. It is rare that a 210 is exactly half of the 410 in a given company's line-up.

With the Berg AE line, the AE410 seems to have a bit more balls than the AE210 stack... I assume due to a slight difference in tuning and possibly different internal volumes.

Edit: To the OP... sorry I didn't see your reference to Epifani.... yes, I owned both the 410UL and 210UL, and the 210UL was voiced deeper and more scooped... two would sound a bit different than the 410UL. Since the UL line is relatively 'polite' in both the low and upper mids to start with, I greatly prefer the sound of the 410UL to the 2 x 210UL myself... a bit more mid presence... just a smidge more authority in the upper bass to my ears.

[PSPookie]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Stump

Seems like two, 2x10 Epi cabs would have "more box".

26.25 H x 23 W x 17.75 D for a 4x10. If you multiply each dimension, do you get the cubic inches? (this would be 10,716 c.i.). Not sure if that's the way to calculate cabinet space.

18.5 H x 23 W x 17.75 D for a 2x10 (= 7,553 c.i., multiplied by 2 would be 15,105 c.i.)

In practice then, two 2x10 would should produce more low end, given that the amount of box space is higher, and yet the drivers are identical in both?

Your math and units are basically correct though the internal volumes of each cabinet will be slightly lower than your calculations because you have to take the thickness of the wood (you are using external dimensions) and the volume occupied by internal bracing into account.

But yeah, you're on the right track. a 2x2x10 rig is something I wouldn't mind trying and Epi is definitely a good way to go. I also think a pair of Genz Uber 210s would pretty nice.

[lomo]

Originally Posted by KJung

For bass guitar amplification, and with a modern 410 with a tweeter, the impact of vertically stacking 2 x 210 versus using a 410 is the most ridiculously overstated thing on this site IMO and IME. Yes, you will get a bit better upper mid dispersion near field, that's about it.

Of course, with a speaker blaring closer to your ear, it will sound VERY different within a few feet of the cab, that's for sure.

IMO an enormous advantage of the paired 210s is the proximity of the upper driver to your head=much less volume needed to hear yourself clearly. Modularity is a relative plus for many (me included), as is the smaller footprint. 2 boxes cost more than 1, however.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by lomo

IMO an enormous advantage of the paired 210s is the proximity of the upper driver to your head=much less volume needed to hear yourself clearly. Modularity is a relative plus for many (me included), as is the smaller footprint. 2 boxes cost more than 1, however.

If you are in a pure stage monitoring situation with your backline, I agree. If you are in a situation where your rig needs to cover the house, not so much IMO.

Regarding modularity, yet another personal thing. I've not had luck with 'cutting my rig in half' and being happy with the tone on smaller gigs. I prefer to find a larger cab (in my case, a 410) for larger or louder gigs, and then a smaller cab that sounds equally good to me for smaller gigs (in my case, a very small and lightweight 212, or a very small 115 cab). I like the beauty of always dealing with a single cab on a gig. However, again, pure IMO there. Nothing easier for me than wheeling a 410 in with my head and stand on top, yankin' off the cover, and getting to work!

[synaesthesia]

Originally Posted by KJung

For bass guitar amplification, and with a modern 410 with a tweeter, the impact of vertically stacking 2 x 210 versus using a 410 is the most ridiculously overstated thing on this site IMO and IME. Yes, you will get a bit better upper mid dispersion near field, that's about it.
.

Actually no, not just the near field.

This depends on whether you use PA, speaker monitoring or backline alone. If you are using PA and monitoring on stage, and your bass guitar on stage right is fed to the keyboardist's personal wedge monitor on stage left it doesn't matter much. If you have good PA support, the dispersion of your bass signal in the mix is not dependent on your backline cab. If you are using backline alone, a vertical stack is always better.

It also depends on how critical your ear is to the advantages; bass guitar and guitar 'tone' in typical expectations is not very critical in stage audio, and the present preferences in tone are consequences of this.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by KJung

For bass guitar amplification, and with a modern 410 with a tweeter, the impact of vertically stacking 2 x 210 versus using a 410 is the most ridiculously overstated thing on this site IMO and IME. Yes, you will get a bit better upper mid dispersion near field, that's about it.

Of course, with a speaker blaring closer to your ear, it will sound VERY different within a few feet of the cab, that's for sure.

my sound is way more accurate through the house with a speaker blaring closer to my ear. that's 90% of the reason i quit using a 410 and went back to a stack. with the 410, i'd tweak it to where it sounded good to me and it would be way too bright and middy for the house. or i'd tweak it good for the house and it would be muddy. the better upper mid dispersion is a bonus compared to the peace of mind knowing what you hear is what's hitting the house. of course, with an 810 or a 215 i'm not getting that anyway, but i meant for a two 210 rig.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

my sound is way more accurate through the house with a speaker blaring closer to my ear. that's 90% of the reason i quit using a 410 and went back to a stack. with the 410, i'd tweak it to where it sounded good to me and it would be way too bright and middy for the house. or i'd tweak it good for the house and it would be muddy. the better upper mid dispersion is a bonus compared to the peace of mind knowing what you hear is what's hitting the house. of course, with an 810 or a 215 i'm not getting that anyway, but i meant for a two 210 rig.

+1 Everyone is different. I find just the opposite. When using only backline for your sound source to the house, it is amazing how much top end you need in your tone coming from the cab to sound balanced out front. Having all those directional mids and the tweeter close to me ear ends up causing me to generate a darker, more mellow sound on stage (of course, it sounds GREAT on stage that way), and hence not putting out the top end needed to battle with the room, audience, etc., absorbing those frequencies more than the low end.

However, if you are going through the front of house, I'm with you all the way... I get my cab up and turn down and EQ it so that it sounds good to me.

[BigOldHarry]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Stump

Seems like two, 2x10 Epi cabs would have "more box".

26.25 H x 23 W x 17.75 D for a 4x10. If you multiply each dimension, do you get the cubic inches? (this would be 10,716 c.i.). Not sure if that's the way to calculate cabinet space.

18.5 H x 23 W x 17.75 D for a 2x10 (= 7,553 c.i., multiplied by 2 would be 15,105 c.i.)

In practice then, two 2x10 would should produce more low end, given that the amount of box space is higher, and yet the drivers are identical in both?

I guess i'll be finding out - I just got a 2nd 2x10 NYC Epi, so i'm selling my beloved 4x10...

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by KJung

+1 Everyone is different. I find just the opposite. When using only backline for your sound source to the house, it is amazing how much top end you need in your tone coming from the cab to sound balanced out front. Having all those directional mids and the tweeter close to me ear ends up causing me to generate a darker, more mellow sound on stage (of course, it sounds GREAT on stage that way), and hence not putting out the top end needed to battle with the room, audience, etc., absorbing those frequencies more than the low end.

However, if you are going through the front of house, I'm with you all the way... I get my cab up and turn down and EQ it so that it sounds good to me.

you know, my band's guitarist has that philosophy. for the same reasons you stated, he does the same thing with his marshall jcm 900 combo. can't stand the treble but uses a ton of it, then stands way over it so the highs blow past his ears. but they go right into the audience, and damn does it beam! god help you if you stand in front of it! it'll drill you good.

[shoot-r]

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

They'd be better. Two 2x10s allows close to vertical stacking of the drivers, which is a huge improvement over the 4x configuration in the mids and high frequencies. In the lows they'd be identical, assuming the same overall net cabinet size, drivers and tuning.

+10000000000000000000....................
I listened to Bill and went to a vertical stacked 410 rig.
ABSOLUTELY love it.

[aledeville]

Originally Posted by BigOldHarry

I guess i'll be finding out - I just got a 2nd 2x10 NYC Epi, so i'm selling my beloved 4x10...

I'm pretty sure that it will sound better, even not stacked vertically. You'll have a great setup!