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  #1  
Old 05-09-2011, 12:01 AM
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Underpowered or under-cab'd?

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Hey all,
So my "B" rig consists of an Ampeg B-2RE into an 8 Ohm Aguilar GS210. I've been mostly using it as a practice rig, but I used it for a couple gigs this weekend including a small house party and an outdoor show where I was reinforced by the PA.

The specs on the B-2RE are 250W into 8 Ohms, and the GS210 handles 350W RMS. At both shows, I had to max the master volume (with the limiter engaged) and push the preamp gain as far into clip as my tone could bare in order to contend with the band. The group is a 5 piece ska band, and both the drummer and guitarist are very stage-volume conscious, so I don't think it's as simple as telling my band mates to turn down.

I had the cabinet on the floor for the house party, and on a chair for the outdoor gig. I didn't try to tilt back at the house party because I wasn't reinforced, and I thought the elevation would help my monitoring needs for the outdoor gig. I survived, but the fact that I have to max the system to have it be "adequate" isn't a good sign. What's the deal here? Too little rig for the gig? Does anyone else survive house parties on just a 210?

Thanks

(On an unrelated note, I can't for the life of me get a good sounding tone out of this combo. I just can't get enough low-mid. The Mid control on the amp is centered at 400, my music man's at 500, and the cab must be voiced for Jaco...)

Last edited by schismpunk : 05-09-2011 at 12:09 AM.
  #2  
Old 05-09-2011, 12:27 AM
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That's an inefficient amp into an inefficient cab. Fuggeddaboutit, it's a recipe for fail. It's not about the wattage numbers, either--a 50 W amp can be insanely loud in certain contexts.

Your best bet without starting over from scratch would be to add another 2x10. That way you double your speaker surface area and increase the wattage coming from the amp, for an overall win.

The only way you'll get satisfactory results from a 2x10 by itself is if you have a super-efficient 2x10, or something inefficient but power-hungry like an Acme B210 being driven by an 800 W amp. Neither is a common scenario for most people.
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  #3  
Old 05-09-2011, 12:53 AM
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Thanks for the prompt response.

What is it exactly that makes the two components inefficient? How do I judge that when making a purchase?

The object for me at this point is to have a smaller rig to take to gigs. I'm getting tired of hauling around my main rig to every show -- a Goliath III, 40-pound QSC amp in a rack, and a cart -- especially when they're house parties without ramps.

I'm thinking it'll be more practical to switch to a high-powered lightweight combo (MB212?) rather than keep going with this current rig, but if there's a way to get it to work with either of the existing pieces, my pocketbook would prefer it.
  #4  
Old 05-09-2011, 04:49 AM
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Agree with Bongo: best solution is another identical 210, with the eventual goal of a more powerful head in the future if that doesn't make you smile. In the case of the head, it's more a case of an optimistic power rating than efficiency. For the cab, the spl spec supposedly gives an idea of how efficiently it transforms watts into perceived loudness. In practice the 2nd figure is virtually always inflated and sometimes the 1st is as well. Simply, any 210 is usually not enough for most people in a loud band. It can only get so loud, no matter how much power you push into it. In general, adding speaker area is a better way to get louder than adding power.
For most, 4 10s and 350 watts should about do it, albeit not with a large amount of headroom.
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Last edited by lomo : 05-09-2011 at 04:57 AM.
  #5  
Old 05-09-2011, 06:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schismpunk View Post
Thanks for the prompt response.

What is it exactly that makes the two components inefficient? How do I judge that when making a purchase?

The object for me at this point is to have a smaller rig to take to gigs. I'm getting tired of hauling around my main rig to every show -- a Goliath III, 40-pound QSC amp in a rack, and a cart -- especially when they're house parties without ramps.

I'm thinking it'll be more practical to switch to a high-powered lightweight combo (MB212?) rather than keep going with this current rig, but if there's a way to get it to work with either of the existing pieces, my pocketbook would prefer it.
An amp is sometimes called "inefficient" for lack of a better word when you compare a bunch of amplifiers that are all the same nominal wattage rating into the same speaker, and that amp sounds really quiet compared to the other ones. Without going into detail, amp companies "fudge" the wattage ratings without exactly lying because there are a lot of different ways to measure them and rate them.

A cabinet actually gets rated for efficiency in terms of db @1 watt @1 meter @ 1Khz. Typical ratings for bass cabs are 98 to 106, each 3 db decrease in efficiency means you will have to use twice the wattage into the lower efficiency speaker to get it to be as loud as the one that is 3 db higher. But...this is a 1 K, which isn't exactly the frequency we're concerned about. No commercial cab makers will supply you with frequency response plots/graphs, (not ranges, but actual graphs), so the only way to tell how a speaker is "voiced" is to scope it out yourself or listen to it alone or compared to another.

Typically how I would rate the efficiency or "loudness" of amps and cabs would be to compare them to each other and say "wow, that one's a LOT louder eh?"

I wouldn't go combo route, what happens when that isn't loud enough? my gut level reaction? I would ditch the small ampeg head and aggie 210, take a look at your rack and decide what you really need in it, and maybe lose the 40 lb QSC for a QSC PLX that weighs half as much. At the very least I would check out a bunch of the modern light but very powerful heads and light and loud cabs.

you're not going to make that ampeg/aggie combination louder, and you don't like it. there's a good chance you might not mind bringing the 410 you have to smaller gigs if you just had a powerful 2 space or smaller 10 lb head.

I use a poweramp very similar to a PLX and I have it in a 2 space skb rack. It weighs 20 lbs and carries like a suitcase. I use it on every gig from tiny coffeehouse gigs with one 12" cab to monster outdoor gigs with two twelves and two fifteens. It's a LOT less hassle than a rack or a rack and a cart, and today I could find an amp head 1/2 the size that would work just as well and could fit under the seat of my car.
  #6  
Old 05-09-2011, 07:11 AM
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i think undercabbed. bring your cab to a music store and test it against a 2x15. i would say thats the minimum for a no pa gig. johnny a.
  #7  
Old 05-09-2011, 07:19 AM
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Yeah to be clear my use of the word "inefficient" for the amp head was just a convenience, not a technically correct usage. It's just not easy to explain why one 250 W amp is super loud while another 250 W amp is wimpy and weak.
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