Uneven tone/volume with 410 and 115...help!

[chubrocker]

I must be searching with the wrong terms or something, but I'm not finding much info on my issue--at least info to lead me toward a more "informed" decision.

I have a 1001RB-II with GK 410 and 115 cab. I recently got a Walkabout Scout combo and use the head with the cabs. I had this issue with both amps (used GK full-range, not biamped). I am wishing to move to the WalkAbout as I just LOVE this amp!!

With lower notes, my bass (L2000, MIM 60's, TL-5), the sound is very "sub" ish--very strong and powerful. So basically, when playing a song with lots of octaves or moving all over the next, the lower notes over power the rest--especially with the TL-5 and hitting a low D or C. I don't boost any bass in EQ. In fact, I cut the bass on the WA.

I'm not sure if its our rehearsal space or if I need to with another 410. I've considered going with a TB153 with the Scout combo. I've thought about going with a 610 as well. Essentially, I want consistent volume and tone. I also want to maximize the WA wattage by looking at going to 2.6ohms to get more than 300 watts out of it.

I know there was a thread here at one time how using a 115 with a 410 is not really wise overall. Please connect me to that link or educate me on my cab issue.

[Marko5657]

The results of a search; lots of info.

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/search...archid=8057576

[JTE]

This pops up all the time, but I don't recall a specific thread. Essentially these are the factors...

A. Size of the driver doesn't predict sound at all. The sound you hear is all about the entire cabinet design.
B. Four 10" speakers in a typical box move more air and generally have more or at least the same low end as a single 15 in the typical box.
C. Mixing a 1x15 with a 4x10 looks cool 'n' all, but it doesn't give you "the thump of a 15 and the fast response of 10's" as people assume. Most of this nonsense is generated by someone using a single 4x10, and then adding a 1x15 under it. They now have some coupling at some frequencies, the amp sees its optimum load so they have more power, and the 4x10 is now in their ear. All those things factor together and they think it's all due to the combination of two mis-matched cabs.
D. It's really due more to just moving more air and having the speaker up at ear level. If they'd tried their 4x10 on top of another matched 4x10 it would have all, if not more, of the same advantages.
E. When Hartke introduced their aluminum drivers in the '80s, they made a 4x10, a 2x10, and a 1x15. The 4x10 was the most popular one, and that box is largely responsible for the sudden surge of 4x10s that happened. David Nordschow (the founder of Eden Electronics who also designed the original SWR Goliaths) was running a music distribution company and his customers were all talking about the Hartke. He figured there was a better way to make them, and that led to the SWR Goliath 4x10, and then later the Eden. That's where the 4x10 thing got going.
F. The 4x10/1x15 stack looked cool, and folks assumed the 15 would add bottom the 10's couldn't provide.
G. Since that's what looked cool, people bought 'em, and got used to 'em. LOTS of musicians don't really listen with their ears, but with their eyes (or someone else's eyes) so the cabinet makers build what sells, even if it ain't the "best" sounding thing.
H. Just because a 4x10/1x15 stack ain't the best thing you could have, some people DO like the way they sound (just like some folks like Rick 4001 and some like Telecaster basses with mudbuckers while other like Precisions, etc.).

Now it sound like what you're hearing is the uncontrolled weirdness of frequency and phase cancel0ations/reinforcements that occur with that rig. My personal feeling is try a matched 4x10 with your current 4x10. Try a matched pair of 1x15. See if that helps tame the problems, and decide which you like better.

John

[Rafael]

Originally Posted by chubrocker

I'm not sure if its our rehearsal space

This.

[rodl2005]

Originally Posted by JTE

This pops up all the time, but I don't recall a specific thread. Essentially these are the factors...

A. Size of the driver doesn't predict sound at all. The sound you hear is all about the entire cabinet design.
B. Four 10" speakers in a typical box move more air and generally have more or at least the same low end as a single 15 in the typical box.
C. Mixing a 1x15 with a 4x10 looks cool 'n' all, but it doesn't give you "the thump of a 15 and the fast response of 10's" as people assume. Most of this nonsense is generated by someone using a single 4x10, and then adding a 1x15 under it. They now have some coupling at some frequencies, the amp sees its optimum load so they have more power, and the 4x10 is now in their ear. All those things factor together and they think it's all due to the combination of two mis-matched cabs.
D. It's really due more to just moving more air and having the speaker up at ear level. If they'd tried their 4x10 on top of another matched 4x10 it would have all, if not more, of the same advantages.
E. When Hartke introduced their aluminum drivers in the '80s, they made a 4x10, a 2x10, and a 1x15. The 4x10 was the most popular one, and that box is largely responsible for the sudden surge of 4x10s that happened. David Nordschow (the founder of Eden Electronics who also designed the original SWR Goliaths) was running a music distribution company and his customers were all talking about the Hartke. He figured there was a better way to make them, and that led to the SWR Goliath 4x10, and then later the Eden. That's where the 4x10 thing got going.
F. The 4x10/1x15 stack looked cool, and folks assumed the 15 would add bottom the 10's couldn't provide.
G. Since that's what looked cool, people bought 'em, and got used to 'em. LOTS of musicians don't really listen with their ears, but with their eyes (or someone else's eyes) so the cabinet makers build what sells, even if it ain't the "best" sounding thing.
H. Just because a 4x10/1x15 stack ain't the best thing you could have, some people DO like the way they sound (just like some folks like Rick 4001 and some like Telecaster basses with mudbuckers while other like Precisions, etc.).

Now it sound like what you're hearing is the uncontrolled weirdness of frequency and phase cancel0ations/reinforcements that occur with that rig. My personal feeling is try a matched 4x10 with your current 4x10. Try a matched pair of 1x15. See if that helps tame the problems, and decide which you like better.

John

Well put sir.

[will33]

Yep, 410 and a 15 is a pretty unbalanced mismatch as it is. The speakers ready have different phase ralationships with each other, add to that room cancellation issues and it's a mess. Try moving the rig to different spots around the room, sound will change, maybe for the better, maybe not.

Setup outside and play to pin down the the differences between the 2 cabs (no boundry reflections,) the rest of the weirdness can be attributed to placement issues in the room.

[prd004]

JTE pretty much hit the speaker thing out of the park, nothing I could add there.

The other two factors that come to mind are EQ and room acoustics. The bass frequency on your amp is going to be centered on a particular frequency, and therefore will effect certain notes more than others, a compressor will help in this dept.

Room acoustics are probably a major culprit and can be fixed, but you'll need some knowlege on the subject.

The other thing that comes to mind, and maybe should have come first are your strings. I have played many-o-string in my day that have incrediblly noticeable variance in string to string volume!

[rodl2005]

+1 to the strings reply. Many strings are far more mid focused than others. Sometimes just a poor quality set of strings can give you an unbalanced response.
Still, JTE said 99% of it above

[Crabby]

I have proven to myself that a 410 and 115 setup is not ideal. Neither is a 210 and 115 setup. I have tried this with various brands of matched cabs and its never worked out. My latest experience was when I bought a Mesa 410 and paired it with a Mesa 115. My ears were used to a pair of Mesa 115 cabs. The 410 and 115 setup was not good. The sweet punch of the 410 was minimized and the fat roundness of the 115 was masked and if felt like the best characteristics of each cab were being cancelled out by the other. The combo was loud but you lost the character of each cab when blended together.

I much prefer a matched set of cabs or even better one large cab. I have Mesa PH412 and it is the "holy grail" in my opinion> its so clear and articulate but insanely loud and deep all at the same time.

[B-string]

Are you sure your pickup to string height is correct? Not too close on the lower strings?

[steelhead2]

play with adjusting your bass side pickup(s),sure helped me when i acquired a powerhouse head/cab,it's all about EQ'ing for sure but when i had only combo practise amps it was all about getting enough bass tone,as i moved up the food chain it's been about balancing the tone.

[chubrocker]

All excellent points, thoughts, and reminders! I'll research and double-check them all.

[JimmyM]

Bag the 115 and get another 410 if you like the 410 better and for max volume, or bag the 410 and get another 115 if you like the 115 better and don't mind taking a hit on volume capabilities.

[RickenBoogie]

^that^

[Bassflute]

Originally Posted by chubrocker

I must be searching with the wrong terms or something, but I'm not finding much info on my issue--at least info to lead me toward a more "informed" decision.

I have a 1001RB-II with GK 410 and 115 cab. I recently got a Walkabout Scout combo and use the head with the cabs. I had this issue with both amps (used GK full-range, not biamped). I am wishing to move to the WalkAbout as I just LOVE this amp!!

With lower notes, my bass (L2000, MIM 60's, TL-5), the sound is very "sub" ish--very strong and powerful. So basically, when playing a song with lots of octaves or moving all over the next, the lower notes over power the rest--especially with the TL-5 and hitting a low D or C. I don't boost any bass in EQ. In fact, I cut the bass on the WA.

I'm not sure if its our rehearsal space or if I need to with another 410. I've considered going with a TB153 with the Scout combo. I've thought about going with a 610 as well. Essentially, I want consistent volume and tone. I also want to maximize the WA wattage by looking at going to 2.6ohms to get more than 300 watts out of it.

I know there was a thread here at one time how using a 115 with a 410 is not really wise overall. Please connect me to that link or educate me on my cab issue.

The 410/15 setup was great back in the day of biamping, where you could truly balance and find the sweet spot of the two vastly different cabs. The 15 does indeed give you a whole different aspect of low under these conditions. The ideal rig was the 2x10/15 and the 4x10/18 setups. But you need the whole crossover thing to really do it justice, and ideally TONS of power. Plugging in in any of these setups in just a mono situation, the 410/210 cab will be WAY louder than either the 15 or especially the 18, and it will totally suck. Unfortunately, that's what most misinformed bass players have done for years. The old Trace biamp rigs of the 80's and 90 were incredible things. Prior to that, you had to do it yourself with Ashley components. The only 210/15 cab setup that I ever heard that sounded great was my old Trace 1225V combo (Mark King's original Trace rig) with the 15" extension cab the 1153 - that rig didn't need biamping, and was designed to work together. One of my students back then tried to copy me with a 210 Redhead combo with their extension 15" cab, and it sucked. Been there, done that.

Originally Posted by Marko5657

The results of a search; lots of info.

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/search...archid=8057576

Try your link - it doesn't work.

Originally Posted by JTE

This pops up all the time, but I don't recall a specific thread. Essentially these are the factors...

A. Size of the driver doesn't predict sound at all. The sound you hear is all about the entire cabinet design.
B. Four 10" speakers in a typical box move more air and generally have more or at least the same low end as a single 15 in the typical box.
C. Mixing a 1x15 with a 4x10 looks cool 'n' all, but it doesn't give you "the thump of a 15 and the fast response of 10's" as people assume. Most of this nonsense is generated by someone using a single 4x10, and then adding a 1x15 under it. They now have some coupling at some frequencies, the amp sees its optimum load so they have more power, and the 4x10 is now in their ear. All those things factor together and they think it's all due to the combination of two mis-matched cabs.
D. It's really due more to just moving more air and having the speaker up at ear level. If they'd tried their 4x10 on top of another matched 4x10 it would have all, if not more, of the same advantages.
E. When Hartke introduced their aluminum drivers in the '80s, they made a 4x10, a 2x10, and a 1x15. The 4x10 was the most popular one, and that box is largely responsible for the sudden surge of 4x10s that happened. David Nordschow (the founder of Eden Electronics who also designed the original SWR Goliaths) was running a music distribution company and his customers were all talking about the Hartke. He figured there was a better way to make them, and that led to the SWR Goliath 4x10, and then later the Eden. That's where the 4x10 thing got going.
F. The 4x10/1x15 stack looked cool, and folks assumed the 15 would add bottom the 10's couldn't provide.
G. Since that's what looked cool, people bought 'em, and got used to 'em. LOTS of musicians don't really listen with their ears, but with their eyes (or someone else's eyes) so the cabinet makers build what sells, even if it ain't the "best" sounding thing.
H. Just because a 4x10/1x15 stack ain't the best thing you could have, some people DO like the way they sound (just like some folks like Rick 4001 and some like Telecaster basses with mudbuckers while other like Precisions, etc.).

Now it sound like what you're hearing is the uncontrolled weirdness of frequency and phase cancel0ations/reinforcements that occur with that rig. My personal feeling is try a matched 4x10 with your current 4x10. Try a matched pair of 1x15. See if that helps tame the problems, and decide which you like better.

John

Exactly, the 410/15 LOOKED COOL - people didn't know what they were doing. Add a crossover to that, and two high powered amps (biamping) and you'd have a KLLER rig, a la Trace Elliot:

Originally Posted by Crabby

I have proven to myself that a 410 and 115 setup is not ideal. Neither is a 210 and 115 setup. I have tried this with various brands of matched cabs and its never worked out. My latest experience was when I bought a Mesa 410 and paired it with a Mesa 115. My ears were used to a pair of Mesa 115 cabs. The 410 and 115 setup was not good. The sweet punch of the 410 was minimized and the fat roundness of the 115 was masked and if felt like the best characteristics of each cab were being cancelled out by the other. The combo was loud but you lost the character of each cab when blended together.

I much prefer a matched set of cabs or even better one large cab. I have Mesa PH412 and it is the "holy grail" in my opinion> its so clear and articulate but insanely loud and deep all at the same time.

See above - biamping!

Originally Posted by JimmyM

Bag the 115 and get another 410 if you like the 410 better and for max volume, or bag the 410 and get another 115 if you like the 115 better and don't mind taking a hit on volume capabilities.

I do like 810's, but prefer them all in one cab. Or better yet, the Berg 6x10.

If you want to even out your 410/15 rig, biamp it.

Cheers,
Cameron

[CapnSev]

+1 to all of the above.

As a general rule of thumb I always assume that a 115 will go with a 210, another 115, or possibly a 112.

A 410 will go with another 410, or a 212. Everything else is almost always a mismatch. I have also found that a jumble of different cab brands can lead to a jumble of results in sound, many of which are terrible.

[mello_bedwetter]

It kind of makes you wonder why GK made the 410MBE to go along with the MB210 combo. I guess because it would sell. Same thing goes with Fender and the Rumble series.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by mello_bedwetter

It kind of makes you wonder why GK made the 410MBE to go along with the MB210 combo. I guess because it would sell. Same thing goes with Fender and the Rumble series.

Now you understand! It'll sell...100% right.

[mello_bedwetter]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

Now you understand! It'll sell...100% right.

I picked up a 410MBE to use with my MB210 combo but I still haven't tried it. I use the 210MBE with the combo and the 4x10 works great with the Tour 450.

[Dustin Teel]

I think a lot of it can potentially be the room, though. I play a Peavey 4x12 TVX cab with a Hartke head and, out of all the bars we play, there is one particular bar where I always have that same problem. The notes on my basses' D and G string just aren't as powerful/loud as the E and A. The bar is small and shaped funny. Doesn't happen at other venues...