Unknown Avatar Frequency Lows

[Pickinator]

I spoke with Dave at Avatar yesterday on the phone. I asked him how low of a frequency his B210 cab can reach. He said that he never checked but insisted that it has no problem faithfully reproducing a low B on a 5-string or a low A. He knew that the Foster horns hit 16,000 hz but didn't know about the lows?

In comparing the Carvin BXRs it says the 2X10 gets down to 28hz and the 4X10 gets down to 26hz. Even their Br 1X18 only gets down to 30hz.

Thus: Their lowest frequency-producing cab is their
BRX 4X10. The 4X10 cab is 18" deep. The 2X10 cab is only 15" deep.

A number of members of TB had a hard time convincing me that a 2X10 or 4X10 cab can hit the lows without a 1X15 or 1X18 cab to support it. I am convinced based upon Carvins tech specs that the Talk bass posters were right. I had a hard time believing it based on personal experience as I used to have a 4X10. And I saw the Alan Parsons Project's bass player use a 4X10 cab only on stage and he definitely needed more lows. I was in the 2nd row about 20 feet in front of his rig. Small venue. He was very talented but the bottom wasn't there. It could be that I may not have ever had it dial in right. However, I would think Alan Parsons' bass player would know how. The keyboard amps, incidently, produced the absolute lowest notes for Alan.

My second concern is about Avatar not knowing how low they can go. I bought a 4X10 and a 1X15 from Avatar in about 2005 along with a Hartke 550 watt amp without knowing numbers. I'd rate that rig at a "B/B-". I'm bothered by unknown low frequency numers?

Does Dave not know. I understand that he is greatly respected here at TalkBass. I might still go with him. He doesn't like Carvin's China drivers. I certainly like the recommendation of Eminence USA made speakers.

Dave also said that there is no difference between his neo speakers -vs- his ceramic speakers other than weight and the fact that the ceramics can handle more power and heat. He recommends his ceramics for the cash savings and increased power handling if a sore back isn't an issue.

[bongomania]

He does not know because he is in the business of providing good cabs at low cost; and taking the time and cash to learn and follow a good test methodology would be an expense that's outside of his model. Also, when cab manufacturers are honest about their cabs' abilities, the specs don't look so good; so nearly everyone inflates their specs in order to be more competitive in the market, among people who buy based on specs. Avatar is actually taking the high road, by saying they just don't know!

[RickenBoogie]

Yup, and further, anything below 40Hz is both very hard to hear, and moreso, hard to amplify. It would take MAJOR power to pull it off. A normal bass rig, 300-500 watts and a 4x10, the low B is heard by the harmonics, not the fundemental.

[brendanbassist]

Originally Posted by Pickinator

...Carvin BXRs it says the 2X10 gets down to 28hz and the 4X10 gets down to 26hz....

From first hand experience, I can say this is completely false.

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by Pickinator

In comparing the Carvin BXRs it says the 2X10 gets down to 28hz and the 4X10 gets down to 26hz.

It's one thing to say it, it's quite another to back it up with a measured SPL chart. Since Carvin doesn't do so take those as advertising claims, not engineering facts.

A number of members of TB had a hard time convincing me that a 2X10 or 4X10 cab can hit the lows without a 1X15 or 1X18 cab to support it

There's no reason why not, the size of the driver doesn't dictate how low it will go. That's determined by the full set of driver T/S specs and the cabinet design.

Does Dave not know

Perhaps. But as you're interested this is a measured response chart of an Avatar neo 410, complements of Bruce Gavin:


As far as the low end response goes if anything it's better than average. And for every 115 that will go lower you'll find another that won't go as low.

Avatar is actually taking the high road, by saying they just don't know!

It's a lot better than just pulling a silly figure out of thin air.

[BurningSkies]

Nice gap between the tweeter and the woofers though.

I have to laugh at the Carvin claim of 26hz...

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by BurningSkies

Nice gap between the tweeter and the woofers though. .

That's also typical of 410s, and why you shouldn't run from a woofer to a tweeter, but rather from a woofer to a midrange. But that's a different topic.

[BurningSkies]

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

That's also typical of 410s, and why you shouldn't run from a woofer to a tweeter, but rather from a woofer to a midrange. But that's a different topic.

You don't have to convince me...I'm running a woofer to a mid and skipping the tweeter altogether.

[steveksux]

Originally Posted by BurningSkies

Nice gap between the tweeter and the woofers though.

I have to laugh at the Carvin claim of 26hz...

Me too, that's got to be in Canadian Hz. What's the exchange rate currently?

Randy

[BurningSkies]

Originally Posted by steveksux

Me too, that's got to be in Canadian Hz. What's the exchange rate currently?

Randy

I'm guessing it's 26 Canadian times 1.9 or so for US Hz...

[Bassamatic]

ANY frequency response claim is useless without knowing the reference dB. The cabinet DOES do 26Hz, but it is 80 dB down from the center frequency, which means you can't hear it at all!

Most amp frequency response specs are given as within +/- 3dB (1/2 power) and speakers a bit more than that, maybe +/- 6 dB, which is 1/4. This you could still EQ to boost the bass if you really wanted to. But any more than 6 dB or so down and the number is relatively meaningless.

[bobcruz]

Pickinator, the other posters are hinting at a few statements but I'll make them directly:

1. Carvin's frequency specs are absolutely misleading if not completely false. The speaker cabinets may produce an almost inaudible sound at the quoted frequencies, which would make the specs "only" misleading.

2. The same goes for most other published frequency response specs. Search the forum for more detailed discussions about this. Most bass cabinets start to roll off somewhere in the 70 Hz region and if they can hit 50 Hz, they are extremely deep and bassy. The specs the manufacturers published in the 80's and early 90's used to reflect this reality; then lying became fashionable.

3. Because Avatar doesn't publish similar specs, the company is actually more honest and trustworthy because it isn't lying to you or trying to mislead you. Their speakers go as low in frequency as most other manufacturers, if not more so.

4. You wouldn't want to produce those incredibly low fundamentals in any case--they're great for explosion effects in a movie theater but are hell in a live band mix. But don't worry, no musical instrument speaker produces 26 hz at any level that would cause this problem. You get all the sound you need from the harmonics and your ears and brain supply the fundamental all by themselves. This effect is known as "psychoacoustics" and is exploited by the makers of Maxxbass: MaxxBass - Bass Enhancer Plugin | Waves

[B-string]

I think G-K is not out of line listing the -3db point.

[dmusic148]

Originally Posted by Pickinator

I saw the Alan Parsons Project's bass player use a 4X10 cab only on stage and he definitely needed more lows. I was in the 2nd row about 20 feet in front of his rig. Small venue. He was very talented but the bottom wasn't there.

You probably were experiencing cancellations. It just so happened that where you were standing, the lows from the PA and lows from the stage came together and cancelled each other. Happens all the time. It probably sounded fine on stage.

[Pickinator]

OK

Then what specs can I read and trust; or shouldn't I be asking beyond cab dimensions, Ohms, and power handling.

What about Dave's opinion that the Ceramic and neo drivers are the same soundwise except that the ceramic weighs more, costs less, and handles more power. I believe the last 3 but I've heard so many good things about the neos.

And many here say to avoid the Delta 10s (ceramic).

Please don't get me wrong as I am not dissing Avatar. I am just asking what I'd like to think are fair questions and I have bought 2 Avatar cabs in the past. In fairness, the "B/B-" rating may be entirely the Hartke amp's limitations or my inability to properly dial it in. I bought the Hartke from Dave as well and I see he sells Genz Benz now.

[Petebass]

Originally Posted by Pickinator

What about Dave's opinion that the Ceramic and neo drivers are the same soundwise .........:

He is only half right. Nowadays the bottom end performance is on par between neo and ceramic. Where he is wrong is in the high mids. A neo speaker has a smaller magnet, and therefor a very different natural inductance characteristic. In plain english, the neos almost always have a hump in the high mids.

As for Delta 10s, I'd avoid them. Believe it or not the Beta 10 is a better option for bass guitar.

[B-string]

Originally Posted by Pickinator

OK

Then what specs can I read and trust; or shouldn't I be asking beyond cab dimensions, Ohms, and power handling.

What about Dave's opinion that the Ceramic and neo drivers are the same soundwise except that the ceramic weighs more, costs less, and handles more power. I believe the last 3 but I've heard so many good things about the neos.

And many here say to avoid the Delta 10s (ceramic).

Please don't get me wrong as I am not dissing Avatar. I am just asking what I'd like to think are fair questions and I have bought 2 Avatar cabs in the past. In fairness, the "B/B-" rating may be entirely the Hartke amp's limitations or my inability to properly dial it in. I bought the Hartke from Dave as well and I see he sells Genz Benz now.

"Power handling" eh, not so much. Handling should give a basic idea.
NEO usage allowed some things in design that ceramic limited, same sound IMHO no, similar yes. More power handling, not without the earlier onset of compression inherent to ceramics.
This is all IMHO as I have been out of R&D for way too long, but the limitations we ran into back then are pretty hard cast. I could be wrong understand, I do have my doubts about those claims is what I am saying here.

[BurningSkies]

Originally Posted by Pickinator

OK

Then what specs can I read and trust; or shouldn't I be asking beyond cab dimensions, Ohms, and power handling.

What about Dave's opinion that the Ceramic and neo drivers are the same soundwise except that the ceramic weighs more, costs less, and handles more power. I believe the last 3 but I've heard so many good things about the neos.

And many here say to avoid the Delta 10s (ceramic).

Please don't get me wrong as I am not dissing Avatar. I am just asking what I'd like to think are fair questions and I have bought 2 Avatar cabs in the past. In fairness, the "B/B-" rating may be entirely the Hartke amp's limitations or my inability to properly dial it in. I bought the Hartke from Dave as well and I see he sells Genz Benz now.

Neo speakers can sound the same...or not. Depends upon the speaker and how it's built. Neo by itself isn't the deciding factor, but the flux it creates can be one of the variables, along with a whole host of other design geometries. The big problem is that you normally can't just drop a neo speaker in the same cab that you've designed for a ceramic/ferrite speaker...cabs need to be designed for a specific speaker or speakers.

I would say that 'power handling' is equally useless for many players. The power handling figure that most companies list is the thermal power handling limit, not the excursion limited power handling, which usually falls well below the thermal rating. Its why you can get a cab to distort and sound nasty well before you reach its thermal limits.

Of course, the ohm rating is a trusty number right? Or is it...

[Pickinator]

OK

What can I believe in life. Besides my family's love.

Can I just ask:

Will the Carvin Bx 1500 along with an Avatar B210 and B112 all with Dave's Neo Eminence drivers 4 Ohm cabs each sound good; knowing that the Carvin will provide a dedicated amp section to each cab.

Just my taste but I like clean clear powerful lows and nice highs, and not a lot of mids.

[B-string]

Originally Posted by Pickinator

OK

What can I believe in life. Besides my family's love.

Can I just ask:

Will the Carvin Bx 1500 along with an Avatar B210 and B112 all with Dave's Neo Eminence drivers 4 Ohm cabs each sound good; knowing that the Carvin will provide a dedicated amp section to each cab.

Just my taste but I like clean clear powerful lows and nice highs, and not a lot of mids.

1) You will pay taxes in one form or another, nothing/no one lives forever, your own ears when it comes to sound.

2) You can dial down mids, you can't boost mids much without honk so you may well find your sound there.