Using PA Cab As A Bass Cab?

[DJ Bebop]

Originally Posted by iualum

Serious bucks.

A 2x15 (Eminence 3015LFs) / 2x6.5 (18Sound 6ND410s) is a mighty, mighty box that can be had for under $2k (maybe ~$1750). I'll put it up against Meyer or anything else.

You mean something like this > http://greenboy.us/cabs/view.php?mod...Rful%201515/66

See what I did there

[iualum]

Originally Posted by DJ Bebop

You mean something like this > http://greenboy.us/cabs/view.php?mod...Rful%201515/66

See what I did there

Yes, something like that.

[Tuned]

Originally Posted by iualum

A P.A. cab will work, but, yeah, everything else isn't going to be equal. A "really good" P.A. cab will still very likely be less sensitive (maybe much less) than a "really good" bass cab.

Originally Posted by Arjank

Greater displacement depends on the woofer's size and xmax and has(IMO) nothing to do if the loudspeaker is a basscab or PA speaker.

Bass speakers have longer Xmax which means the magnetic field has to be spread over a larger area in which the voice coil travels. Xmax and sensitivity are inversely proportional. Look at the specs of any driver that has PA and bass/subwoofer versions, the one with lower frequency extension will be 5-6dB less efficient. That's a huge SPL loss, requiring around 4x the power to overcome, but the PA speaker can't handle deep lows so even if you have 4x the drivers and matching power they can't produce them.

[Foz]

Boxers or briefs?

Depends!


I've done the PA stack as a bass rig several times and several ways. Most recently with an EAW LA118 on the bottom



anda BFM o-top 2x12 with the piezo array discarded, and a true 3-way xover and greenboy head case installed.



Generalizing my experience, if you use high quality components - you get awesome results. But you can get similar satisfaction with less weight and better pack space dimensions / shlepability out of a box designed specifically for the task. I now typically use a greenboy 1515/66 with a BMS horn driver and find it an excellent compromise of acoustic output capability and portability. These days, IMO, the best thing going is GB's f115 which is extraordinarily versatile [can be a floor wedge, a traditional vertical profile box, or pole mounted, - and is modular [can be reverse baffled for doubling up a pair into a 2x15 stack]. These are tricks a PA box isn't going to offer together with ample low frequency output.



http://bnaaudio.freeforums.net/index...ead=2&page=1#6

[DJ Bebop]

Originally Posted by DJ Bebop

You mean something like this > http://greenboy.us/cabs/view.php?mod...Rful%201515/66

See what I did there

Originally Posted by iualum

Yes, something like that.

Originally Posted by Foz

Boxers or briefs?

Depends!


I've done the PA stack as a bass rig several times and several ways. Most recently with an EAW LA118 on the bottom



anda BFM o-top 2x12 with the piezo array discarded, and a true 3-way xover and greenboy head case installed.



Generalizing my experience, if you use high quality components - you get awesome results. But you can get similar satisfaction with less weight and better pack space dimensions / shlepability out of a box designed specifically for the task. I now typically use a greenboy 1515/66 with a BMS horn driver and find it an excellent compromise of acoustic output capability and portability. These days, IMO, the best thing going is GB's f115 which is extraordinarily versatile [can be a floor wedge, a traditional vertical profile box, or pole mounted, - and is modular [can be reverse baffled for doubling up a pair into a 2x15 stack]. These are tricks a PA box isn't going to offer together with ample low frequency output.



http://bnaaudio.freeforums.net/index...ead=2&page=1#6

I think a fEARful 15/6 is in my future

[iamlowsound]

I have seen lots of guys use Bill Fitzmaurice D series PA tops as bass cabs. Although, that is a folded horn design and going to be way more efficient than any box cab out there.

lowsound

[iualum]

Originally Posted by Arjank

Greater displacement depends on the woofer's size and xmax and has(IMO) nothing to do if the loudspeaker is a basscab or PA speaker.

The drivers in my cab are the Oberton 10B200 and 8NCX.

Yes, Vd does depend on surface area & Xmax, correct. And you're also right about it having nothing to do with the box application.

But a single 2-way (w/coaxial 8) cab, while you (or whomever) may love how it sounds, isn't going to cut the muster in much other than a small to small-medium live situation. The 10B200 has low sensitivity (93dB) & being a 10", even with good Xmax (5.75mm), doesn't move so much air (182.5 mm). The 8NCX's sensitivity is 95dB, a tad on the low side. Add the 8NCX's 95.95 Vd (20.2 m2 x 4.75 Xmax) the cab has 278.45 mm Vd. The 2 drivers (taken from Lautsprecher-Technik) are 324 Euro (about $440 U.S.).

The similar bass cab I referenced with a 15" Eminence Kappa Lite 3015LF (and a 6.5" 18Sound 6ND410) would have a minimum VD of 845mm. The 3015LF's sensitivity is 99.8dB. The 6ND410's sensitivity is 102dB. The 3015LF is priced at $240 U.S. & the 6ND410 is $146 U.S. (total $386 U.S., ~286 Euro).

This specific bass box will be larger & heavier than the P.A. box, but still very manageable at about 20" wide x 30" tall x 16" deep & ~47 lbs. It will also max out at 8kHz, but will cover the vast, vast majority of bass players' needs.

And an alternative cab could employ either an Eminence 3015 (non LF) or Faital Pro 15PR400 & Selenium D220Ti High Frequency driver (to 20kHz) & HM25-25 horn. With the Faital, the total driver/horn price would come to only ~$320 U.S. (~237 Euro). The Vd on this cab would be less, ~463 mm (vs. the P.A. cab's 278 mm). And sensitivity would be 100 dB minimum.

Again, if the P.A. rig is tonally what someone wants, great. And yes, it'll work. But all things considered, I don't really see any contest.

[Bassmec]

Originally Posted by iualum

Yes, Vd does depend on surface area & Xmax, correct. And you're also right about it having nothing to do with the box application.

But a single 2-way (w/coaxial 8) cab, while you (or whomever) may love how it sounds, isn't going to cut the muster in much other than a small to small-medium live situation. The 10B200 has low sensitivity (93dB) & being a 10", even with good Xmax (5.75mm), doesn't move so much air (182.5 mm). The 8NCX's sensitivity is 95dB, a tad on the low side. Add the 8NCX's 95.95 Vd (20.2 m2 x 4.75 Xmax) the cab has 278.45 mm Vd. The 2 drivers (taken from Lautsprecher-Technik) are 324 Euro (about $440 U.S.).

The similar bass cab I referenced with a 15" Eminence Kappa Lite 3015LF (and a 6.5" 18Sound 6ND410) would have a minimum VD of 845mm. The 3015LF's sensitivity is 99.8dB. The 6ND410's sensitivity is 102dB. The 3015LF is priced at $240 U.S. & the 6ND410 is $146 U.S. (total $386 U.S., ~286 Euro).

This specific bass box will be larger & heavier than the P.A. box, but still very manageable at about 20" wide x 30" tall x 16" deep & ~47 lbs. It will also max out at 8kHz, but will cover the vast, vast majority of bass players' needs.

And an alternative cab could employ either an Eminence 3015 (non LF) or Faital Pro 15PR400 & Selenium D220Ti High Frequency driver (to 20kHz) & HM25-25 horn. With the Faital, the total driver/horn price would come to only ~$320 U.S. (~237 Euro). The Vd on this cab would be less, ~463 mm (vs. the P.A. cab's 278 mm). And sensitivity would be 100 dB minimum.

Again, if the P.A. rig is tonally what someone wants, great. And yes, it'll work. But all things considered, I don't really see any contest.

That's a bit odd I was under the distinct impression that Eminence designed the 3015lf as a compact sub loudspeaker for public address and general use I never realised for one instant that a loudspeaker like that would be designed for bass guitar use only.

[Passinwind]

Originally Posted by iualum

The 3015LF's sensitivity is 99.8dB.

That spec was downrated years ago, but somehow it is still posted all over the web that way.

[iualum]

Originally Posted by Passinwind

That spec was downrated years ago, but somehow it is still posted all over the web that way.

Thanks for the info. O.K., 98.4 dB.

[iualum]

Originally Posted by Bassmec

That's a bit odd I was under the distinct impression that Eminence designed the 3015lf as a compact sub loudspeaker for public address and general use I never realised for one instant that a loudspeaker like that would be designed for bass guitar use only.

Didn't know the ins/outs of 3015LF development. O.K., P.A. & general use. All I know is that arguably the best LF/mid-range (& HF driver, if someone wants/likes it) bass boxes employ 3015LFs.

[Arjank]

Originally Posted by iualum

But a single 2-way (w/coaxial 8) cab, while you (or whomever) may love how it sounds, isn't going to cut the muster in much other than a small to small-medium live situation. The 10B200 has low sensitivity (93dB) & being a 10", even with good Xmax (5.75mm), doesn't move so much air (182.5 mm). The 8NCX's sensitivity is 95dB, a tad on the low side. Add the 8NCX's 95.95 Vd (20.2 m2 x 4.75 Xmax) the cab has 278.45 mm Vd. The 2 drivers (taken from Lautsprecher-Technik) are 324 Euro (about $440 U.S.).

Forgot to say that it's a 210 with coaxial 8" mid/high driver, so it uses two 10B200's.
Let me say that any 210 I compared it with got a beating from it, even a budget Eden 410 didn't move as much air.

And don't let the sensitivity of these drivers fool you, these 10" can move some air and because it's a three way system the 10's only run up to 400hz keeping intermodulation distortion very low.
Also, I 1st had some deltalite 2510 mkII's , they were no match for the 10B200. I litterally dumped the deltalites in the garbage bin....
The coax seems to have a lowish sensitivity but because the dispersion is exceptional and because phase issues are kept to a minimum the sensitivity is very good off-axis, you can't say that of a regular 210 or 410....
Btw sensitivity is not everything, the clear and dynamic mids this driver produces makes the bass very audible through guitars and drums.

Just wanted to build the best 210. If I wanted to build something brutal I would use the 8NCX again in conjunction with an Oberton http://oberton.com/index.php?option=...m-loudspeakers That 18" driver needs approx the same cab volume as the 3015LF but will definitely kicks it's ass when fed with enough power

[Bassmec]

Originally Posted by iualum

Didn't know the ins/outs of 3015LF development. O.K., P.A. & general use. All I know is that arguably the best LF/mid-range (& HF driver, if someone wants/likes it) bass boxes employ 3015LFs.

You need to take a look around at more modern designs with dual differential bass drivers and active crossovers to improve on the design of a Fearful 15/15/66/1:
Here is an industry standard small club system loudspeaker:
http://www.jblpro.com/catalog/genera...?PId=426&MId=2
Perhaps the OP should actually be comparing modern bass speakers with modern small club rigs, rather than modern array PA systems.
In that case the only real advantage for a fearful is weight and cost.

[john nam]

So I just got the JBL Eon305 today to use as a bass cab and basically, it did not sound good at all and so I'm returning it . Pretty disappointed.

I got the Eon305 because it met all of my criteria, which was 35lbs or less, 15" with tweeter, 250 watts rms or more, and tiltable as a monitor. Unfortunately, it's waay to midrangey and lacks thickness. There's no rumbling on the open E or B. I compared it with my humble Avatar SB112 neo LF (39 lbs), which is still the benchmark cab for me and the Avatar blew it away. I really wanted to like the JBL since it's lighter, it a 15", and tiltable, but just didn't work out.

[zortation]

Originally Posted by nutdog

PA cab as bass cab?

PA cab as bass cab

A PA cab for a bass rig??

Powered PA speaker/monitor as a cab?

Can I use a PA speaker cabinet for my bass?

210 bass cab vs. 3-way PA cab?

HAVE YOU TRIED PA SUBWOOFER AS A BASS CAB ?

PA speakers as cabs, anyone tried this?

Using PA monitor as Bass Cab???

This

[dspellman]

Originally Posted by troy mcclure

I have used the Carvin LS1503, the older one and other than blowing the horn, it worked pretty well paired with a Markbass F1. One of the advantages was I could pole mount it and get it up at ear level and play at lower volumes as I play with PA support. I did find I had to tighten all the screws up on it as everything rattled a bit.

There's a long, LONG thread (maybe more than one) here about using the 1503 as a bass cab. There were those who considered it one of the great lesser-known "deals" when it came to bang for the buck. Bill Fitzmaurice sketched up a suggestion for supplemental bracing, etc., but the current cabinet has apparently changed drivers and crossovers over the past few years, rendering it perhaps less wonderful than the older ones.

[agedhorse]

It depends.

For bass guitar, one of the most important things that differentiate a PA oriented driver from a bass guitar oriented driver is midrange voicing. The midrange voicing combined with the string harmonics (for the lower notes the signal is a much higher percentage of harmonics to fundamental) can be used to create or highlight a specific personality. This can be due to the driver or the interaction between the driver alone, or the driver and the reflective properties of the box.

Seems easy until it becomes clear that desireable midrange voicings can conflict (in the transducer design process) with some of the very factors that might impair it's most desireable properties as a PA driver. The goal of a skilled designer is to balance out these various parameters in order to maximize the desire while minimizing the undesireable.

If "flat" and "linear" was the goal, nobody would be playing a bass guitar because it would sound horribly sterile and lifeless. It's all the nonlinearities and harmonics that create the complexities of a great bass, the amp and the speaker are additional links in the creative chain.

[Arjank]

Originally Posted by agedhorse

If "flat" and "linear" was the goal, nobody would be playing a bass guitar because it would sound horribly sterile and lifeless

I do not share your thoughts on this matter.
My cab measures extremely flat and now I can hear how a bass CAN sound and that is far, far from sterile and lifeless. On the contrary, every guy who played his bass through it found that they never heard their bass like it before, their sound came more to life then ever. Btw it's not only linearity that's important, there are several other factors involved.

That basscabs aren't linear and color a lot is because their production has to be cheap and easy. There ain't much engineering and thought in 95% of the basscabs.

[Downunderwonder]

I have read Agedhorse go on about testing cabs before putting them into production, no small amount of effort there.

[Arjank]

Originally Posted by Downunderwonder

I have read Agedhorse go on about testing cabs before putting them into production, no small amount of effort there.

Never tried a Genz cab, but it's good to hear that Agedhorse tests them thoroughly before putting them into production, probably Genz cabs belong to the select 5% group .
Still, IMO 95% of the basscabs doesn't have much engineering in them....

I've build lots of cabs that were based on the "regular" concept, 410, 48, 210, 115. Some 15 years back I also did build two fearful type of cabs (15/6). But all of them were not what I was looking for (though these 15/6 cabs sounded massive, used them for a Primus coverband I played in back then).
Then it was time to combine my knowledge from building hifi/studio loudspeakers and build the best 210 I could. The result is that I'm more then satisfied with it, the difference in tone/sound is huge compared to the "regular" concepts (which IMO are flawed in many ways, except that they are cheap and easy to design/build).