Using two UL210's in a vertical stack

[feelinlow]

I have a UL210 series one cab that I use for rehearsals and very small gig. When I first got the cab I tried it up off the ground on a stand or crate and was very disappointed as it had no bottom at all. As soon as I put in on the floor (I use it vertical on its side) I got tons of bottom and could not believe how big it sounds for a 210.

I like the idea of getting a second UL210 and put it on top (still with both of them vertical 4X1) and was wondering if I will have the same result with the 210 that is on top where there is no bottom end out of the cab because it is elevated?

I'm either going to do that or maybe just get a Bergantino AE212.

Any Experience out there with the Epi cabs used in this configuration?

Thanks,

[KJung]

While you will lose a smidge of low end by getting the cab up off the floor, IMO and IME what you are mostly hearing is the more directional mids being more in line with your ear, giving you the impression that the cab sounds more nasal.

Here is something to try.... play your UL210 on your milk crate for a while to get that tone in your head. Now, put the UL210 on the ground, but squat down in front of it so your ears are at the same orientation to the cab as when you had it on the crate. More likely than not, you will hear a similar ratio of mids to low end.

The slight loss of low end is there, but it is just a fraction of what you think you are hearing... trick of the ear due to orientation to that 'beam of upper midrange'.

Two UL210's is a killer rig, and there are some advantages to vertical stacking (as has been posted many times).

[feelinlow]

Thanks KJung. I have to do something. On larger gigs I use my UL410 S1. If I have it far enough behind me it sounds amazing but what happens on most cases the stage setup is tight and I'm standing right in front of my cab like maybe 2 ft away so everything blows by me. I'm thinking with the two 210's in a vertical stack this may solve my problem but will I get the same output, bottom, etc. with the vertical config as I do with my UL410?

I do not have the second 210 yet so I am trying to do my homework before I look for one.

I played the AE212 at a music store and that cab is pretty sweet as well.

Thanks,

[KJung]

Originally Posted by feelinlow

Thanks KJung. I have to do something. On larger gigs I use my UL410 S1. If I have it far enough behind me it sounds amazing but what happens on most cases the stage setup is tight and I'm standing right in front of my cab like maybe 2 ft away so everything blows by me. I'm thinking with the two 210's in a vertical stack this may solve my problem but will I get the same output, bottom, etc. with the vertical config as I do with my UL410?

I do not have the second 210 yet so I am trying to do my homework before I look for one.

I played the AE212 at a music store and that cab is pretty sweet as well.

Thanks,

I gigged a 410UL for many years, and also had a UL210 for a while. A UL210 does not really sound like a smaller 410UL (as you probably know)... less upper mid present, more deeply voiced low end. So, two 210UL's, even stacked horizontally, will not sound exactly like the 410 version.

That being said, vertical stacking is a nice way to get more of those directional mids in your ear when standing close to the cab, and you will still get massive volume out of that stack, although it will be a bit less punchy than the 410UL, given the tuning of the UL210.

I actually think that will probably be a good solution for you, and the midrange spread close to the cab on stage will be a smidge better also as a bonus (although with the big hole in the upper mids of the UL210, you probably won't notice that as much.

I'm gigging an AE212 quite often, and it is a killer cab, and is the closest thing in the AE line to the Epi tone (i.e., that big low end, smooth mid mid response, with no upper mid spike). The AE line of cabs have been discontinued though. If you can find an AE212, I'd sell your UL210 and get that! Keep the 410UL for big stages where you really need to wump, although the AE212 will get you 80%+ there.

IMO!

[feelinlow]

I like your advise. There is a local dealer that has two AE212's in stock right now. (I would only but one). That would probably take care of mosts gigs period and def anything I am using the 210 for by itself by far. I actually have two UL410's to cover any large stage but really never had a chance to use them both together. With that said, the AE212 will get about 80% of the output of the UL410?

[KJung]

Originally Posted by feelinlow

I like your advise. There is a local dealer that has two AE212's in stock right now. (I would only but one). That would probably take care of mosts gigs period and def anything I am using the 210 for by itself by far. I actually have two UL410's to cover any large stage but really never had a chance to use them both together. With that said, the AE212 will get about 80% of the output of the UL410?

That is my feeling from indirect comparison, and is typical of comparing a high quality 212 to a high quality 410.

The only negative I have with the AE212 is it feels a bit heavier than it actually is, due to the handle placement. Cumbersome to carry, but with a cart, minor issue.

It has that kind of 410UL Series II voicing to it... very smooth in the upper mids, and big down low. I really dig it, and have never run out of volume with my Markbass F500 (it is a 4ohm cab). The AE410 is much more aggressive up top and punchy/tight down low.

[KJung]

One caveat. While the AE212 will bury a single UL210, and will be a bit better near field than your 410UL, it surely won't give you the near field monitoring that stacking two UL210's will give you. If youy main purpose is getting a driver up close to your ear, but still having 410 wump, then a second, identical 210 would probably be the way to go.

The AE212 will be 'better' near field, but you will still result in a bit of what you don't like about the 410UL if you are standing right on top of the cab.

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by feelinlow

I was wondering if I will have the same result with the 210 that is on top where there is no bottom end out of the cab because it is elevated?

You don't lose anything, because the four drivers are close enough together to mutually couple in the low end, operating as one. Any perception of less bass is just that, perception, the result of being able to hear the mids and highs better from the upper cab.

[BassmanPaul]

I also use the vertical skinny stack and I'd not go back. There is no loss of bass response.

[ErnieD]

I've wondered recently, quite a few feel they just loose too much bottom end when stacking their cabs vertically. I suppose from all that say here, that is what thier ears are percieving and they are not really loosing low end at all.

So what if they would say for ex: lay the bottom 210 horizonally; then stand the top 210 vertically? This would keep that bottom cab on the stage floor, possibly giving them that low end tone/feel they're used to. Then the top, vertical cab would put a driver not quite ear-high but up closer to their ears where they can hear those mids-hi-mids they rarely hear and just more of their tone/sound better.

Of course this may not assist with the comb filtering issue and just might cause other issues all together. But it might help some with their percieved loss of low end that keeps them from stacking thier two cabs vertically.

Just a thought. This being said I stack my two RS 210's and sometimes two Neox 212T's vertically when I don't use my other cabs, UL410's or TB153. Tho I still am trying to get used to all that sound being so close to my ears.

Again, just thinking here, still have some cobwebs from last nites' loud-@ss gig. Great club, huge crowd, (in a very good mood after watching the Texans WHUP SF ) so a fun gig. Carry on.

[Bo_H]

Perfect timing!

I just acquired a PS210 and I want to add another 210 vertically. Although this is a UL thread I'm going to follow this thread and see how it pans out.

I've been doing some Internet window shopping and I'm interested in Carvin's 8ohm 210 as a second cab. I'm still up in the air as to a good head to match so perhaps someone can suggest something.

Apologies for the hijack.

[esa372]

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

You don't lose anything, because the four drivers are close enough together to mutually couple in the low end, operating as one. Any perception of less bass is just that, perception, the result of being able to hear the mids and highs better from the upper cab.

Originally Posted by BassmanPaul

I also use the vertical skinny stack and I'd not go back. There is no loss of bass response.

+1

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by ErnieD

I've wondered recently, quite a few feel they just loose too much bottom end when stacking their cabs vertically. I suppose from all that say here, that is what thier ears are percieving and they are not really loosing low end at all.

That. Vertically stacked you hear what was there all along but you didn't know it. Don't like hearing the mids and highs? Then why subject the audience to them? Turn them down, that's why they went to the trouble of putting those EQ knobs and sliders on your amp.

[feelinlow]

Originally Posted by KJung

One caveat. While the AE212 will bury a single UL210, and will be a bit better near field than your 410UL, it surely won't give you the near field monitoring that stacking two UL210's will give you. If youy main purpose is getting a driver up close to your ear, but still having 410 wump, then a second, identical 210 would probably be the way to go.

The AE212 will be 'better' near field, but you will still result in a bit of what you don't like about the 410UL if you are standing right on top of the cab.

KJung you have great points. Being that I already have a 210 it would be alot easier to just get one more but I just want to make sure I'm doing the right thing. That AE212 is very tempting... now to throw something else in the mix what are your feelings about 2 single 112's vs 1 212?

[KJung]

Originally Posted by feelinlow

KJung you have great points. Being that I already have a 210 it would be alot easier to just get one more but I just want to make sure I'm doing the right thing. That AE212 is very tempting... now to throw something else in the mix what are your feelings about 2 single 112's vs 1 212?

Depends on the brand and cab. For example, two AE112's sound NOTHING like the AE212. For me, the cost difference (two 112's are a lot more expensive) combined with the relatively small size of many 212's gives the advantage to a single 212. IMO there... more of a tonal issue.

[feelinlow]

Originally Posted by KJung

Depends on the brand and cab. For example, two AE112's sound NOTHING like the AE212. For me, the cost difference (two 112's are a lot more expensive) combined with the relatively small size of many 212's gives the advantage to a single 212. IMO there... more of a tonal issue.

I was just wondering because alot of guys are using two 112 cabs like the GS112's

Thanks,

[KJung]

Originally Posted by feelinlow

I was just wondering because alot of guys are using two 112 cabs like the GS112's

Thanks,

It really depends on the brand. For example, two GS112's put out about the same volume as the GS212(4ohm), but I find the GS212 to have a bit more mid response. I guess having two separate boxes cannot be exactly mimic's with one larger box.

However, this is more extreme with the AE cabs, where the AE212 has a very differently voiced crossover than the AE112, and seems to also be tuned a smidge lower.