Verellan vs Reeves

[chillerthanmost]

Originally Posted by UrsaMinor

Thanks a lot Ed! I had a few people say that you could mod the amp, and add an extra pair of Kt88's, so I guess they were wrong. I apologize. On the other hand, the MS is definitely a more grindy amp, and would work well for a multitude of heavier genres.

On the other end, would you lose any tone with using pedals with the Reeves? I wasn't sure if running them straight into the signal chain would disrupt any high, mids, or lows. I am trying to learn more about amps and EE in general, and I'd like to become more knowledgeable. I am not quite a beginner, but these two amps would be my first high end tube amp. I used to have a Mesa 400+, but sold it for financial reasons, and it wasn't exactly warm enough.

You won't lose tone with pedals on the Reeves. The signal just isn't flavored as other amps, so it will give you exactly what you throw at it. Just make sure you have good pedals if you'll play them with that Reeves. Really, same goes for other amps but with some of the flavoring other amps process, pedals might get voiced a little differently. With the Hi-Fi aspect of that Reeves, as Ed pointed out, you'll get as much true of the signal you're throwing at it.

[UrsaMinor]

Well, I won't be playing really heavy music forever. I may not even be playing it much in the next few years, if not next year. It's amazing, but sometimes I just wanna crank up a nice tone, and have it sound like heaven, and not the depths of hades(in a good way, of course).

I am getting some nice Reeves info, and I am thinking this may be my amp for sure. I have always heard these things sound friggin amazing, and being only 26(still young in some ways), I've always been into heavier sludge/speed metal/metalcore stuff from the 90's/early 2000's, and I have been looking into playing more stuff like:

The Beatles
Minus the Bear
Wilco
Radiohead
Modest Mouse

On the other hand, thank you for the advice on the pedals. That takes a huge weight off my mind. I have also heard this amp is very, very unforgiving. I will have to practice more I actually am excited about that

[D.M.N.]

I've looked at both amps extensively in the past, and as has been said, you really can't go wrong. What I'm not sure has been mentioned though, though I'm sure you've already seen this, is that the Verellen is two channel (footswitchable), between a "cleaner" and an OD channel. I'm sure it can stay "clean" plenty loudly in the same way an SVT does. Not necessarily overdriven, but certainly a lot more wooly than the clean of the Reeves.

Personally, for my playing style and tone, I'd go with the Reeves hands down (unless someone can talk Greg Germino into making a Major clone...). I love my Sunn amps because of how Hi-Fi they are, and I love the tone of those types of circuits (Hiwatt, Sunns, Reeves, etc) when pushed to the edge. It's not so much a roaring fuzzed out OD so much as it just gets hairy and crunchy, and in the mids and highs, sort of zingy or twangy. But my tone and playing is also quite outfront, filling it out in a three piece where I want the bass to be very distinct. So that's my reasoning behind choosing between the two.

So, in the end, I think either is a fantastic choice. From the sounds of what you're describing, I'd say go for the Verellen, where it will still be able to produce loud cleans, but it will also be suitable for your more driven, heavy needs. The other amps you've mentioned (SVT, SVT II, Matamp) all seem leaning more towards that sonic territory (driven, grunty SVT-esque), where as the Reeves seems to me at least to be in a category, for lack of a better term.





Though...you could always get the Reeves, and then the Meat Smoke Pre pedal...

[UrsaMinor]

Thanks a lot! I could always do that I am hoping to snag one of these in the next few months, but life hits you in ways you never thought were coming. Heck, if I could find the SVT II(non-pro) in the next few months(whenever I have the money to spare), I may just do that, and bypass the graphic EQ. I bet it would sound killer, and take pedals well. Cheaper as well, even with a complete run over. Anyways...The one thing I am worried about, is whether or not I am patient enough to go through with one these beauties. Any of them would do me just fine!!! Thanks for all the advice, and if you must, keep it coming.

On the other hand, these two amps are definitely in my dream boat, and are quite in my reach. I don't have that many bills at the moment, no wife , and I am not in school yet. I would like to snag up a nasty, yet bea-u-tiful rig before I jump on any one of these things. Although, like I stated above, you never know what may happen.

SVT, Reeves, and Meatsmoke: I am coming for one of you, and I won't stop till it's done. No girls is gonna hold me back from the tone I hear in my head/future. However, they are welcome to be on my arm without the commitment. Oh wait...I am a bass player

[edbass]

Originally Posted by UrsaMinor

Thanks a lot Ed! I had a few people say that you could mod the amp, and add an extra pair of Kt88's, so I guess they were wrong. I apologize. On the other hand, the MS is definitely a more grindy amp, and would work well for a multitude of heavier genres.

On the other end, would you lose any tone with using pedals with the Reeves? I wasn't sure if running them straight into the signal chain would disrupt any high, mids, or lows. I am trying to learn more about amps and EE in general, and I'd like to become more knowledgeable. I am not quite a beginner, but these two amps would be my first high end tube amp. I used to have a Mesa 400+, but sold it for financial reasons, and it wasn't exactly warm enough.

Theoretically you could mod a C225 into a C400, but it would involve adding and/or upgrading components and would cost substantially more in parts and labor than buying a new C400 would, so while I am hesitant to say that the people who told you you could mod the amp are wrong, I will say that they are "misguided".
However there is a common misconception that you can add power to a tube amp by simply adding additional output tubes, and that can't really be sugar coated; it's just plain wrong...
It just doesn't work that way.

If by saying a 400+ wasn't "warm" enough for you means that it was too clean with too much headroom, the Reeves is probably going the wrong direction for your taste.
Having compared those two head to head IMO the C225 has far more headroom than the Mesa, substantially more "hi-fi" and more articulate.
To my ears the Mesa had a "syrupy" tone, not real dynamic or touch sensitive, where the Reeves is bigger and bolder sounding with a huge soundstage and more sensitive to input dynamics.
Again; not a "good" or "bad" scenario, just different amps.

Here's a plus for the C225 though. It's easy to make an amp sound dirty, not nearly as easy to pull off a clean dynamic with a lesser headroom amp; particularly in the lower frequencies. You could easily pedal up a Reeves to emulate that grittier Mesa (SVT, Meatsmoke, etc.) tone, but it would be pretty much impossible to get the same "big clean" out of the other amp's circuits.
It’s easy to add distortion, but I’ve never seen a pedal or effect than can actually lower an amp’s THD.

Along those lines, I actually have a C225 right now for “Alpha” testing that has been modded by the Reeves skunk works to “dirty it up a little”. It’s an ongoing project involving combinations of mods, in the ultra preliminary stages and may well never even see production, but I’m not really at liberty to discuss the project.
When (if) I get the Okey Dokey to spill the beans I will, and I hope I don’t wad any panties by posting even this much.

[tombowlus]

Originally Posted by edbass

The term used by Tom Bowlus is "singing" highs. Mea culpa counselor, but at the risk of stealing borrowing terminology I really can't think of a better description.

Borrow away, my friend.

[tombowlus]

Keep in mind, you can run KT120s in the C225 for a bit more headroom (and, to my ears - and on the scope - more mids).

[UrsaMinor]

Thanks a lot gents!!

[dee rob]

Hey Tom, can you just drop in a set of KT120s plug and play style, or does the amp need to be re biased? Tube noob over here....

Originally Posted by tombowlus

Keep in mind, you can run KT120s in the C225 for a bit more headroom (and, to my ears - and on the scope - more mids).

[muljoe]

I love my 225. To my ears and for the sound I want, it is one of the best sounding amps out there. It is super clean and crisp while not sacrificing body in the low frequencies. It is the most articulate bass amp I've ever played through. (I have not played through many botique amps though) You can get some, what I call grit, but it is tough to get a huge overdriven sound from just the amp. That being said, it plays very well with pedals. My woolly mammoth sounds incredible on it. I have also use a lot of overdrive and dirt pedals and they all sound really good. Having some time on the 6 string, I am used to using an amp for clean sounds and pedals for dirt so it's what I use for bass as well. That is my suggestion if you want overdrive and pull for the Reeves.

It also fell about 4 feet on to concrete and there was no damage done. (besides maybe a mini heart attack I suffered) I was really impressed in a good way, it was definitely one of those....wow that was a several hundred dollar mistake right there. Never played through any of the other amps in this thread. I'm not a huge amp gear head so it's more of a simple description but hope it helps. If you have any other specific questions let me know.

(I also pair it with an EV RE-20 for recording and live use when I need PA support and it sounds unreal through the house)

[mjac28]

When people talk about the tone of these amps being so articulate are they being played thru average cabs or only top of the line stuff? are the differences in tone between them and the Mesa able to be heard thru backline eqipment?

[tombowlus]

Originally Posted by dee rob

Hey Tom, can you just drop in a set of KT120s plug and play style, or does the amp need to be re biased? Tube noob over here....

It requires a rebias, and it was a fairly substantial adjustment, but no trouble for someone who knows what they are doing.

[dee rob]

Thanks!

dee

Originally Posted by tombowlus

It requires a rebias, and it was a fairly substantial adjustment, but no trouble for someone who knows what they are doing.

[tombowlus]

Originally Posted by mjac28

When people talk about the tone of these amps being so articulate are they being played thru average cabs or only top of the line stuff? are the differences in tone between them and the Mesa able to be heard thru backline eqipment?

First off, let me say that I love my Mesa amps (D-180 and Bass 400, to name a few), but you can definitely hear a difference between either of those and the Reeves through just about any cab. Some will prefer one, some will prefer the other.

What part of Ohio are you in? Perhaps we could meet up sometime and you could try my C225 against my Mesa's or whatever.

Tom.

[edbass]

Originally Posted by mjac28

When people talk about the tone of these amps being so articulate are they being played thru average cabs or only top of the line stuff? are the differences in tone between them and the Mesa able to be heard thru backline eqipment?

Hardly; at least in my case! I've played a lot of amps through a lot of cabs, but the majority of my gig experience with the Reeves is through this cab;



That's the oft-modded C225 prototype on top of a 40 year old Sunn 215S that’s currently loaded with EVM15L's, not exactly what most people would refer to as "top of the line" or "cutting edge" transducer technology.
I usually use the L's with the C225 because the amp has such a strong tight bottom that the B's are a little overkill IMO, the L’s are a bit more controlled down low. I’ve also used the C225 with satisfying results through that cab loaded with D140F’s, K140’s, Reeves proprietary 15” bass drivers and various Eminence woofers. Not state of the art, but a very flexible bass guitar cab.

Originally Posted by tombowlus

First off, let me say that I love my Mesa amps (D-180 and Bass 400, to name a few), but you can definitely hear a difference between either of those and the Reeves through just about any cab. Some will prefer one, some will prefer the other.

Let me once again borrow from tombowlus; I also like Mesa gear, and rereading my previous post it seems that my comments could come off as a bit harsh; possibly even slightly derogatory towards Mesa bass gear.
That wasn’t my intent. I was just trying to verbally illustrate the tonal differences between the 400+ and the C225, at least to my ears.

[PWV]

Originally Posted by dee rob

Hey Tom, can you just drop in a set of KT120s plug and play style, or does the amp need to be re biased? Tube noob over here....

fwiw, Ben no longer puts KT120's in the Meatsmoke. He did for awhile when the KT120 first came out a couple of years ago, but apparently they are not as reliable or "controllable" (Sorry, vocab is failing me now...) as the traditional KT88's or 6550's. My perception is the jury is still out on the KT120's - at least for the overdrive quality.

[edbass]

Originally Posted by PWV

fwiw, Ben no longer puts KT120's in the Meatsmoke. He did for awhile when the KT120 first came out a couple of years ago, but apparently they are not as reliable or "controllable" (Sorry, vocab is failing me now...) as the traditional KT88's or 6550's. My perception is the jury is still out on the KT120's - at least for the overdrive quality.

The KT120 would certainly be less likely to saturate using the voltages commiserate with most KT88/6550 circuits, also the KT120 can put a strain on the PT of some KT88/6550 amps by virtue of its increased heater draw alone.
Although I haven't had the opportunity to try one, nor can I find much tech data about them online the Meatsmoke is seemingly being touted as a more "overdrive type" amp and probably would be less KT120 friendly than the C225's big output tube current and "big clean" traits.
As I said that’s speculation on my part rather than actual hands on experience, but if their you tube demo is any indication it’s not exactly designed to be a “clean machine".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDqRXHwclM4

Whereas the C225 is just a much more hi-fi concept;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGoxqoya-L4

Again, not a better or worse scenario, just different courses for different horses.

[PWV]

Originally Posted by edbass

Again, not a better or worse scenario, just different courses for different horses.

^^^^^
Sweet rig btw edbass - love 2x15's with ports!


Agreed Ed - that's what I was thinking: that the KT120 might not be a good fit for the overdrive fan, but it sure seems like a good idea to open up some tone options at clean levels.

Yes, but imo that video is a bit deceptive on the MS's clean tone. I went to the Verellan Shop and paired my NV412 with the Meatsmoke. It does a great clean tone with finger style, but there's just not many demos of it being used in that capacity. *Jazz guitarist Jim Hall has been using a Verellan combo I believe last year. Don't hold me to that, but Ben was involved in the construction of that clean machine.

Guess I don't want to see the Meatsmoke labeled as a one-trick pony - it really is pretty versatile. We're just talking about two of Charlie's Angel's here - and really they're all hot!

[itsnottruerufus]

Originally Posted by UrsaMinor

Well, I won't be playing really heavy music forever. I may not even be playing it much in the next few years, if not next year. It's amazing, but sometimes I just wanna crank up a nice tone, and have it sound like heaven, and not the depths of hades(in a good way, of course).

I am getting some nice Reeves info, and I am thinking this may be my amp for sure. I have always heard these things sound friggin amazing, and being only 26(still young in some ways), I've always been into heavier sludge/speed metal/metalcore stuff from the 90's/early 2000's, and I have been looking into playing more stuff like:

The Beatles
Minus the Bear
Wilco
Radiohead
Modest Mouse

On the other hand, thank you for the advice on the pedals. That takes a huge weight off my mind. I have also heard this amp is very, very unforgiving. I will have to practice more I actually am excited about that

If it helps at all, when I saw Minus the Bear back in september, Cory was playing through a Verellen Meatsmoke (fun fact, Ben Verellen's brother Matt was in Botch, which Dave Knudson of Minus the Bear and Brian Cook from Russian Circles where also in)
And as far as Modest Mouse goes, Eric Judy plays pretty exclusively through SVT's so something more SVT flavored like the Meatsmoke would probably be the way to go

[basswest]

I have a single channel Meatsmoke from 2010 with matching custom Verellen kappalite-loaded cabs. The amp runs as clean or dirty as I want and is definitely more versatile than either of my old SVT's, most notably where the grit turns to grind, and beyond that into full blown distortion. Both cabs together (the meat stack) are capable of putting out a force of low frequency dynamite. I usually need to back off the master in that configuration.