vertical 410 vs vertical 215

[Devo-lution]

Okay, another of those cab questions from me .

I had some trouble hearing myself during rehearsals with my trace elliot 2x15 and my 100 watt tube amp and I asked about some possible courses on how to solve this.

General replies were: you need more speakers and/or power...

I do know that I'm not exactly packing a lot of punch with this 100 watt amp, but I'm yet to encounter an amp that sounds as good, so the amp ain't goin.

Alex's reply that I should adress this to the band and find a good sound together was spot on. We had a bandcoach a few weeks ago and adressed the issue. He worked with the guitar players and when they played the songs like he advised them to, everyone was clearly audible... including myself. However, two weeks later, at least two of our three guitar players are relapsing...

So, I have an offer to trade the 2x15 with a vertical 4x10 stack. I always heard 2x15's are louder than 4x10's, so I wouldn't do it for the volume. This 4x10 stack is 2 ampeg svt 210 av's, so they are sealed. Even less output. Would their increased dispersion justify even thinking about this trade? My guess is things would get worse, but then, I know nothing

[babebambi]

the v410 will be taller and closer to your ear, could make it easier to hear yourself

[JimmyM]

The increased dispersion is nice, but while I really like the 210av cabs, they're not for everyone. They're tuned a little higher than most bass cabs and they are made for light-to-medium situations, not situations like yours with relapsing guitarists. Output would likely be in the same ballpark, though. If you can try before you trade, that would be the thing to do. I'd probably go for an 810e in your situation. Not much bigger than a 215, and tons of output.

[will33]

Ya, you wouldn't gain anything in terms of real overall output, probably lose a little in the lows. The one advantage would be having a speaker closer to ear level to monitor yourself better.

Sounds to me like the issue has already been solved and the other guys won't heed the advise. The problem lies in the guitar players. They're just gonna have to take a little hit in the personal ego department in the interest of having an overall good sound/good band. Easier said than done I know. If they're not willing to sacrifice a little in order to have a good product, think big picture, take one for the team, etc......well, not much you can do at that point. A good group always sounds better than a showoff or two and some other guys.

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by Devo-lution

However, two weeks later, at least two of our three guitar players are relapsing...

If 2x15 isn't enough you're too freaking loud, period. No band is worth losing your hearing. In no uncertain terms you should make it clear that either they turn it down and keep it down or you're moving on to a band with adult members.

[1n3]

Originally Posted by will33

Sounds to me like the issue has already been solved and the other guys won't heed the advise. The problem lies in the guitar players.

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

If 2x15 isn't enough you're too freaking loud, period.

+1
Smaller guitar amps/cabs would be a better solution.

[Devo-lution]

I don't think it's purely an ego thing. One of the guitar players seems to feel "naked" without his distortion blasting at deafening volumes (the bandcoach advised him to play a certain section clean, which did sound much better mix-wise, but also painfully showed off a part of his technique that he isn't too proud off). The other guitar player just follows along with the volume... The drummer start hitting harder... the Keyboard player turns up his system and...

This band can really frustrate me at times... And it's too bad, since I sense a lot of promise in it. This band manages to create songs that at times baffle me in their simplicity. Really simple and rawdy, but at the same time beautiful. And no one would ever guess about our volumes. We've had other people tell us we were lush and dreamy after seeing us live, but when those guys come to our rehearsals, they are the first to grab some earplugs.

This ear level thing can be bypassed easily, right? If I want, I can have a box or something to raise my 2x15 to ear level as well... Maybe that's what I should do instead of hanging out at places where they'll propose to do trades and stuff.

[Mastermold]

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

If 2x15 isn't enough you're too freaking loud, period. No band is worth losing your hearing. In no uncertain terms you should make it clear that either they turn it down and keep it down or you're moving on to a band with adult members.

This is one of the reasons I recently bought a Mesa Walkabout Scout --- lower volume rehearsals. Save the big amps for the stage when they don't all point back at us.

[dhomer]

Originally Posted by Devo-lution

I don't think it's purely an ego thing. One of the guitar players seems to feel "naked" without his distortion blasting at deafening volumes (the bandcoach advised him to play a certain section clean, which did sound much better mix-wise, but also painfully showed off a part of his technique that he isn't too proud off).

Reminds me of what a fellow musician told me 30 years ago.. Didn't register until much later...lol.. "If you can't play, turn it up!"

[onosson]

Originally Posted by Devo-lution

I don't think it's purely an ego thing. One of the guitar players seems to feel "naked" without his distortion blasting at deafening volumes (the bandcoach advised him to play a certain section clean, which did sound much better mix-wise, but also painfully showed off a part of his technique that he isn't too proud off). The other guitar player just follows along with the volume... The drummer start hitting harder... the Keyboard player turns up his system and...

When faced with situations like this, I refuse to play along. I turn DOWN to where I feel is comfortable and appropriate, and they can join me, or continue to make the mix sound poor and ruin it for everyone. There is no reason to put up with that kind of behaviour, it's just dumb.

[onosson]

I might also add that I generally get a better sound out of a 210 by putting it on its side instead of standing vertically. Depends on the room you're in, but give it a try before deciding on a vertical 410 stack.

[will33]

This one band I was in 15-20 years ago had a motto, "What we lack in talent we make up for in volume". Half jokingly but truer than it needs to be sometimes.

Try just raising your cab. I'd dare these guys to do a rehearsal without earplugs. The situation might fix itself. I mean really, what's the point. Why put in earplugs, then crank up to where it sounds good to you when you could lose the earplugs, play quieter and have the same result/sound just as loud. Or are these guys not using plugs, the people watching are? Perhaps explaining they will not be able to enjoy music when they get older if they keep this up, you only get one pair of ears, they have to last you the duration.

[will33]

If the band shows promise, try to work it out. The simple songs are usually the best ones but you're gonna have to draw a line somewhere or you'll end up being the one going "what...what?" all the time when people talk to you. Educate them a little on how sound works. Start by having them cut their power and speaker count in half. That's the whole point of using smaller rigs, you can crank them up to where they sound good without going deaf.

[Devo-lution]

There's a bowl filled with plugs in the rehearsal space for a reason.

Read a lot about sound on the forum and also read Alex's articles and site. Got a lot of good info there but these guys aren't really open to it, I guess. The bandcoach did remark that we're very loud, but they were just laughing about it.

Example 1:
me: hey, can I use that small table over there to raise my rig?
drummer: what for?
me: So I can hear myself better...
drummer: Nah, no need for that. Don't want to schlep it over here ya know...

Example 2:

me to guitar players: maybe you guys should stand opposed to your amps, so you can hear yourselves somewhat better (they stand directly before their amps, so most of their output passes their knees).
guitar players: no, don't want to do that now. We have a lot to do today. Come one, get that bass going and stop whining.
drummer: Is he whining about sound again *rolls eyes*?
...

I just feel that they aren't really taking me serious when I bring up the issue :'). They don't consider the fact that they have volume on spare. The louder they go, the more distorted my signal gets, which I occasionally like, but by the end of most rehearsals my valver is often putting out solid dirt.

Not that they are pricks or something like that. The drummer and the lead guitar player are two of my best pals. They're just really not open to talk about room acoustics, dispersion, etc...

[Bass_Pounder]

Originally Posted by Devo-lution

Not that they are pricks or something like that. The drummer and the lead guitar player are two of my best pals. They're just really not open to talk about room acoustics, dispersion, etc...

Sounds like not only are they NOT real friends, but also that they are NOT serious musicians.

Life is too short................................

[NKUSigEp]

Originally Posted by Devo-lution

Okay, another of those cab questions from me .

I had some trouble hearing myself during rehearsals with my trace elliot 2x15 and my 100 watt tube amp and I asked about some possible courses on how to solve this.

General replies were: you need more speakers and/or power...

I do know that I'm not exactly packing a lot of punch with this 100 watt amp, but I'm yet to encounter an amp that sounds as good, so the amp ain't goin.

Alex's reply that I should adress this to the band and find a good sound together was spot on. We had a bandcoach a few weeks ago and adressed the issue. He worked with the guitar players and when they played the songs like he advised them to, everyone was clearly audible... including myself. However, two weeks later, at least two of our three guitar players are relapsing...

So, I have an offer to trade the 2x15 with a vertical 4x10 stack. I always heard 2x15's are louder than 4x10's, so I wouldn't do it for the volume. This 4x10 stack is 2 ampeg svt 210 av's, so they are sealed. Even less output. Would their increased dispersion justify even thinking about this trade? My guess is things would get worse, but then, I know nothing

First problem: Three guitars.
Second problem: There's not enough ass in that mule!