Vertical stack / dispersion question

[esa372]

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

Do a 210, the same impedance as the 115, placed atop the 115 with the drivers on the vertical axis. You'll have better than twice the midrange dispersion of a 4x10 with no comb filtering...

Based upon that post (from this thread), I've started placing my Eden 210 (4Ω) cab vertically on my Eden 115 (4Ω), with great results.

I now have the opportunity to buy an identical 210 (4Ω), and I am wondering what the differences would be in overall sound and dispersion if I stacked two 210 cabs vertically, as opposed to the 115 + 210.

(I know things like this have been discussed here on TB, and I have searched, but I couldn't find anything specifically comparing these two set-ups.)

So, I'm calling on all vertical stack aficionados for input and comments. What say ye? The 115+210 vertical, or the two 210 vertical? ...and why?

Thanks!

[BassmanPaul]

I use the Acme B2. Vertical is the way to go.Two identical cabinets are always better than two mismatched ones.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by esa372

Based upon that post (from this thread), I've started placing my Eden 210 (4Ω) cab vertically on my Eden 115 (4Ω), with great results.

I now have the opportunity to buy an identical 210 (4Ω), and I am wondering what the differences would be in overall sound and dispersion if I stacked two 210 cabs vertically, as opposed to the 115 + 210.

(I know things like this have been discussed here on TB, and I have searched, but I couldn't find anything specifically comparing these two set-ups.)

So, I'm calling on all vertical stack aficionados for input and comments. What say ye? The 115+210 vertical, or the two 210 vertical? ...and why?

Thanks!

while i have heard 210/115 stacks that work, matching cabs work better. but it's not because of dispersion...it's because of possible phasing issues. i don't know if you've ever experienced it with your rig, but when you have phasing issues, some notes will be very loud, some will be normal, and some will disappear. the degree to which it happens varies with the cabs and their phase relationships, but it's been my experience that i get that to some degree with pretty much every mixed cab rig i've tried.

[billfitzmaurice]

Horizontal dispersion is inversely proportional to the width of the source. That makes the dispersion of a ten wider than that of a twelve, which is wider than that of a fifteen. It also makes the dispersion of two tens side by side the same as the dispersion of a twenty, and two twelves side by side that of a twenty-four. And that's why you can't hear the highs from a guitar'd stack unless you're directly in front of it. You'd think they'd wake up to that fact and stop using those silly things, but that's why we call them guitar'd players.

Adding a 1x15 to a 2x10 may fatten the bottom, and then again, it may not. Driver size does change dispersion. That's the only factor that driver size alone affects.

[1Drop]

Like many here, I've tried all kinds of stacks. 210 on an 18, 210 on a 15, started using GB gear about ten years ago, started with a 410 solo, then tried a 212 on the 410, which was actually pretty fat. Then recently went with 212 0n another 212, the bottom one upright, the top one laying on its side, pushing with gbe 1200. Its all I need and the best rig I've used. Having the upper 212 hitting me square in the back with the bottom one tickling my feet has been a wonderful thing. I'd say use two of the same cabs.

[4Mal]

Even is phase between the 15 and the 10s isn't an issue - it may or may not be ... Resonance can be as can relative volumes between the cab's. What I found when shifting from a 2x10 on top to 2 2x10's stacked vert was that the rig was more even top to bottom so EQ'ing room to room as less tricky. Given the quality of the cab's, if your rig can drive 2 4 ohm cabs - I would say that 2 4 ohm Eden 2x10s would be a darned good rig.

When I ran my stack, it was with 2 4 ohm Bag Ends and a GK 1001 RB II which will not go to 2 ohms. I made a box to put the 2 cabs in series at 8 ohms which cut down the amount of power available but - 480 into 4 10's was always plenty loud enough for me inside or outside. The only thing that would hold me back would be the weight. Well that and the fEarfuls I now use...

[svtb15]

I still like an 810 on its side

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by svtb15

I still like an 810 on its side

i put the blame on debbie gibson

there were two times in recent memory where i was forced to lay my 810 on its side due to crowded or oddly shaped stages. i hated life and wanted to die i like having a speaker or two aimed at my ears. finding out all this other stuff about how audio works was just a bonus as far as i was concerned. but i have to have speakers at ear level or tilted back if they're small.

[esa372]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

i don't know if you've ever experienced it with your rig, but when you have phasing issues, some notes will be very loud, some will be normal, and some will disappear. the degree to which it happens varies with the cabs and their phase relationships, but it's been my experience that i get that to some degree with pretty much every mixed cab rig i've tried.

I have never noticed this with my current Eden set-up, but that's not to say it is or isn't happening...

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

Horizontal dispersion is inversely proportional to the width of the source. That makes the dispersion of a ten wider than that of a [...] fifteen.

Is there any info - like a chart or graph - which shows the different dispersion widths of different drivers?

Originally Posted by BassmanPaul

Vertical is the way to go.Two identical cabinets are always better than two mismatched ones.

Originally Posted by JimmyM

...matching cabs work better.

Originally Posted by 1Drop

I'd say use two of the same cabs.

Originally Posted by 4Mal

I would say that 2 4 ohm Eden 2x10s would be a darned good rig.

Looks like a consensus.

[Calaverasgrande]

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

Horizontal dispersion is inversely proportional to the width of the source. That makes the dispersion of a ten wider than that of a twelve, which is wider than that of a fifteen. It also makes the dispersion of two tens side by side the same as the dispersion of a twenty, and two twelves side by side that of a twenty-four. And that's why you can't hear the highs from a guitar'd stack unless you're directly in front of it. You'd think they'd wake up to that fact and stop using those silly things, but that's why we call them guitar'd players.

Adding a 1x15 to a 2x10 may fatten the bottom, and then again, it may not. Driver size does change dispersion. That's the only factor that driver size alone affects.

I had always thought the narrow dispersion of bigger drivers was due to them being deeper front to back. Eg a 15" will extend maybe 12 inches behind the baffle and a 10" might only extend 6" behind the baffle.
Is there some acoustic interference going on here that causes narrow dispersion from wider drivers? I would like to understand this.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by Calaverasgrande

I had always thought the narrow dispersion of bigger drivers was due to them being deeper front to back. Eg a 15" will extend maybe 12 inches behind the baffle and a 10" might only extend 6" behind the baffle.
Is there some acoustic interference going on here that causes narrow dispersion from wider drivers? I would like to understand this.

the speaker cone doesn't distribute sound all over at the same time. it sort of rolls around the cone to where one side will put out sound a fraction of a second before the other. so those opposing waves meet in the middle of the cone and it pushes all the highs and some upper mids more toward the center of the cone. this gets compounded even more when you have two speakers in a horizontal row.

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by Calaverasgrande

I had always thought the narrow dispersion of bigger drivers was due to them being deeper front to back..

No. It has to do with the size of the radiating plane and the wavelengths being produced.

[wcriley]

Originally Posted by esa372

Is there any info - like a chart or graph - which shows the different dispersion widths of different drivers?

Ask and you shall receive:
frequency tables

[Downunderwonder]

Originally Posted by 4Mal

Even is phase between the 15 and the 10s isn't an issue - it may or may not be ... Resonance can be as can relative volumes between the cab's. What I found when shifting from a 2x10 on top to 2 2x10's stacked vert was that the rig was more even top to bottom so EQ'ing room to room as less tricky. Given the quality of the cab's, if your rig can drive 2 4 ohm cabs - I would say that 2 4 ohm Eden 2x10s would be a darned good rig.

When I ran my stack, it was with 2 4 ohm Bag Ends and a GK 1001 RB II which will not go to 2 ohms. I made a box to put the 2 cabs in series at 8 ohms which cut down the amount of power available but - 480 into 4 10's was always plenty loud enough for me inside or outside. The only thing that would hold me back would be the weight. Well that and the fEarfuls I now use...

I don't think you can fix a phase suckout problem with EQ. If you EQ up the suckout it's a bigger suckout at the critical frequency and a boost either side. Something like that, BFM could explain it properly.

Getting the two identical 2x10 is the only way to guarantee you won't have any of that.

[chuck3]

so ... I was looking at the Schroeder 21015 cab which, as the name implies, is 2 10s plus a 15, with the 15 angled down. Do you think there will be phasing issues with one cab in this configuration, obviously designed by someone who knows what he's doing?

[Rick Auricchio]

It could also be possible that Schroeder simply designed a cab to sell to those who like a mix of 10s and a 15, even if that mix of drivers isn't the best.

That cab seems a bit small for the three drivers...

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by Rick Auricchio

It could also be possible that Schroeder simply designed a cab to sell to those who like a mix of 10s and a 15, even if that mix of drivers isn't the best.

It wouldn't be the first time that's happened. Or the second. Or the hundredth.
I wouldn't use two tens and a fifteen myself; a fifteen doesn't need anything larger than an eight to complement it, and one is sufficient.
If you want to see well thought out and implemented multi-driver cabs the Avatar 153, Audio-Kinesis Thunderchild and Barefaced Bass two ways are good examples.

[zombywoof5050]

Another thing that hasn't been mentioned, I thought I read this awhile back, please correct me if I'm mistaken..

Isn't it true that the coupling effect of stacking two identical cabinets will give an extra 3dB (or is it 6dB)?

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by zombywoof5050

Another thing that hasn't been mentioned, I thought I read this awhile back, please correct me if I'm mistaken..

Isn't it true that the coupling effect of stacking two identical cabinets will give an extra 3dB (or is it 6dB)?

3dB from mutual coupling, 3dB from the doubled power capacity, totaling 6dB.

[esa372]

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

Do a 210, the same impedance as the 115, placed atop the 115 with the drivers on the vertical axis. You'll have better than twice the midrange dispersion of a 4x10 with no comb filtering...

Another question has come up...

When vertically stacking a 210 on top of a 115, does it matter whether or not the 15 is lined-up on the same vertical axis as the 10s? In other words, should the center of all three cones be lined up vertically for the best results?

Thanks!