vintage vs new

[basscooker]

so my thought process is this: there are many differing opinions on what sounds better, fact. the new materials and components last longer, have more accurate tolerances, higher or superior performance ratings across the board (from an analytical standpoint), fact.

my question is this:
what about the vintage amps causes so many reissues to flop in truly duplicating the original? are the variations in material quality not repeatable? are modern components "too good" to truly make a new piece that sounds "perfectly" vintage? is some of the vintage sound actually the result of somewhat less efficient or less optimized designs?

what gives here? is it purely an opinion based debate?

[Russell L]

Personally, I have no problem with the modern stuff sounding just fine. I think for vintage stuff, it may be hard to get the same original parts sometimes. As for making modern stuff sound vintage, it can be done to a point, but never seems to be just perfect. But, like I said, IMO I don't really care. I'm happy with my Markbass gear for now. besides I get to play a bud's vintage VR and 810 every Monday night for a jam, so I get my vintage fix.

[Ric Vice]

Originally Posted by Russell L

Personally, I have no problem with the modern stuff sounding just fine. I think for vintage stuff, it may be hard to get the same original parts sometimes. As for making modern stuff sound vintage, it can be done to a point, but never seems to be just perfect. But, like I said, IMO I don't really care. I'm happy with my Markbass gear for now. besides I get to play a bud's vintage VR and 810 every Monday night for a jam, so I get my vintage fix.

+1
I'm perfectly happy with my two Walter Woods amplifiers, although MI MI-400-8 is quickly quickly approaching vintage status since it's now 22 years old, and his amps usually bring more than their original selling price. Parts for older solid state amplifiers can often be harder to come by than older tube amplifiers.
Now, if were in the realm of ultra vintage amps like the B-15N's it's actually easier to get parts for those amps today, then it would have been say 15 years ago, when we had to get the transformers re wound cause nobody was making them.
In respect to vintage reissues, for example, a Heritage B-15, if Loud had just gone out and produced an exact copy of the B-15N(C) then they would have been competing with a number of used Ampeg amps from the 1960's that are in perfectly good condition. Personally, I think the re-design of the Heritage B-15's improves on the original. I can't afford one, but it's a great amp.

Ric

[will33]

In many re-issue attempts, I think they just cut too many corners whether it be for cost, ease of manufacture, or whatever reason, they turn out to be not accurate duplicates of the original and thus don't perform the same.

[chillerthanmost]

I would disagree with your second fact. I can't imagine many stock amps made today running strong and sounding good fourty years from now. I've played plenty of amps made in the late 60's and 70's that still run great and sound excellent completely stock. Obviously, time will tell.

Individually chosen quality parts and precise pride taken build quality is, in my opinion, why reissues and amps today don't sound or are as desired as the original. Of course I'm talking about today's mass produced over seas amps and not boutique hand made at home amps. And even those, I don't believe to outlast, even in parts alone, and popular vintage amp.

Just my opinion. I could be completely wrong.

[will33]

Also, some of the musical majic of the old stuff is because of technical inaccuracies or things being "less than perfect", they just sound better that way.

[will33]

Originally Posted by chillerthanmost

I would disagree with your second fact. I can't imagine many stock amps made today running strong and sounding good fourty years from now. I've played plenty of amps made in the late 60's and 70's that still run great and sound excellent completely stock. Obviously, time will tell.

Individually chosen quality parts and precise pride taken build quality is, in my opinion, why reissues and amps today don't sound or are as desired as the original. Of course I'm talking about today's mass produced over seas amps and not boutique hand made at home amps. And even those, I don't believe to outlast, even in parts alone, and popular vintage amp.

Just my opinion. I could be completely wrong.

I'd tend to agree with this, at least from personal experience. Especially with the new micro stuff, it seems to be going the way of disposable products the same way a lot of the culture is going. They don't seem to be designed for maintaining, repairing and hanging on to for decades. You either replace an entire modular circuit board because a couple little $3 parts on it went bad, or just throw the whole thing away and get another one.

I guess we'll find out in 30 years.

[countrybass007]

Vintage is only gear that isn't made anymore. The SWR Silverado, Boogie D180, and several others are no longer available new, I consider them vintage.

[Farfetched]

While vintage is always my first choice, in the back of my mind, I always wonder how much longer some of those vintage components are going to last. amps from the 60s are already 50 years old.

[basscooker]

so many differences boil down to the office bean counters. what about say, ptp or turrets versus ic's and pcb's? is too much technology actually a BAD thing with respect to tone?

don't get me wrong, i have a new micro and a vintage tube, love them both for their individual traits. i was just wondering if things as simple as the materials that the components are made from being more refined or the alloys being more advanced actually take away from cherished tones. are there still sonic or electrical qualities that somebody needs to define with math, that will show the differences spoken of? like some kind of spectrum analysis. trying to explain tone heaven on paper with numbers and pictures, maybe?

[beans-on-toast]

I think that there are several factors involved:

If a large company is manufacturing the amp, it will probably be designed to be assembled with automation and in the most cost effective way. This requires using modern machine insertable components, jumper connections between boards that are not the same as the old hardwired connections, usually cost cutting measures are implemented which affects quality. The routing on the circuit boards and the width of the traces is usually changed. The iron/steel used in transformers years ago is not the same as what is used today. They also have to meet modern safety standards so changes have to be made there.

The differences can be minute, sometimes things are lost in the translation.

Can they build an exact replica of an old amp? Absolutely.
Can they hand build these replicas to the highest standards? Yes.
Can they produce these replica amps in a cost effective profitable way? Unfortunately, I don't think so.

A small company or an independent sub-group within a large company usually stands a better chance of producing a great reissue amp. When design for large scale manufacturing and tight profit margins come in to play, the final product can suffer.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by will33

I'd tend to agree with this, at least from personal experience. Especially with the new micro stuff, it seems to be going the way of disposable products the same way a lot of the culture is going. They don't seem to be designed for maintaining, repairing and hanging on to for decades. You either replace an entire modular circuit board because a couple little $3 parts on it went bad, or just throw the whole thing away and get another one.

Some of it is more disposable, some of it isn't. But considering I've given away or thrown out computers that cost $2000 after 2 years because of the technology moving so quickly, I find it tough to fault micro technology just because you might need to replace a board or an SMPS in a few years. And really, that remains to be seen, as you pointed out.

Anyway, I don't know that I buy into vintage always being better than modern. Love vintage stuff, but not every company that existed 50 years ago is making bad versions of their new stuff. Ampeg certainly isn't making an inferior sounding SVT-VR or B-15, that's for sure.

[craig.p]

Might some of it be due to the tubes that are available today? Or are the factories now producing reasonably close equivalents of what we had in the '60s and '70s, and doing so consistently? I'm no longer a tube guy, so I really don't know the answer.

[will33]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

Some of it is more disposable, some of it isn't. But considering I've given away or thrown out computers that cost $2000 after 2 years because of the technology moving so quickly, I find it tough to fault micro technology just because you might need to replace a board or an SMPS in a few years. And really, that remains to be seen, as you pointed out.

Anyway, I don't know that I buy into vintage always being better than modern. Love vintage stuff, but not every company that existed 50 years ago is making bad versions of their new stuff. Ampeg certainly isn't making an inferior sounding SVT-VR or B-15, that's for sure.

Ya, good point. Those are my impressions from what I encounter in day to day life. It just seems as though things are more disposable than they used to be. I can't really point to some fact or study that proves it's so. Your computer is a great example, there's carcasses of those things everywhere nobody wants and they're not that old. When's the last time anybody used a "TV repairman"?....they still exist, but a lot of people just junk it and get another one.

[will33]

Originally Posted by craig.p

Might some of it be due to the tubes that are available today? Or are the factories now producing reasonably close equivalents of what we had in the '60s and '70s, and doing so consistently? I'm no longer a tube guy, so I really don't know the answer.

From techs I've talked to, nearly all say it's somewhat the quality but mostly the consistency that isn't what it used to be. Militaries and hospitals don't depend on them anymore and they don't have to be that exact or sturdy to "work" in an amplifier, although working well, staying stable and lasting a long time doesn't happen like it used to. These guys usually don't consider brand much anymore and just look for good, stable stuff, wherever it came from. I have a set of Ruby's in my bassman. Thought of as sort of a cheap brand by some but two different techs commented to me on how good quality and "stable" my set was. I bought them from a tech for that reason. These are guys who usually drool over old tubes because they're just better. I don't have the technical knowledge to explain the "why's", it's just what reputable people who do know what they're doing tell me.

[StuartV]

Originally Posted by countrybass007

Vintage is only gear that isn't made anymore. The SWR Silverado, Boogie D180, and several others are no longer available new, I consider them vintage.

My Promethean 1x10 combo is now vintage?! SWEET!!

[basscooker]

i guess we live in a "black box" society. a friend of mine has a BS in electronic engineering. he took a hit as the economy started to lose ground. he works on atm machines, now. he says he hasn't touched a soldering iron in over a year. he also said he can't remember the last time he actually did a repair. his most used tool is a screwdriver.

but anyway myself, my friend, and an aquaintence of his are going to build an amp (my $ their brains and hands), and i was just curious about the main differences in the basic materials.

what about new old stock? are there no-no's when it comes to buying this stuff? does it fall out of spec if it's never been used? am i more likely to have success with a new build of an old design, or restoring on old amp?

[Coolhandjjl]

Many things like tubes had fairly convoluted formulas coating their elements. Many of these secret 'brews' died with the makers. Things like transformers or pickups were wound with gauges no longer commonly available or with winding patterns and densities not easily replicated. Some manufacturing processes, and materials, are now banned. Does that make vintage things better? Worse? Can't really say either way, just that modern made goods will always be different no matter how hard a maker tries to be faithful to an original.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by basscooker

i guess we live in a "black box" society. a friend of mine has a BS in electronic engineering. he took a hit as the economy started to lose ground. he works on atm machines, now. he says he hasn't touched a soldering iron in over a year. he also said he can't remember the last time he actually did a repair. his most used tool is a screwdriver.

but anyway myself, my friend, and an aquaintence of his are going to build an amp (my $ their brains and hands), and i was just curious about the main differences in the basic materials.

what about new old stock? are there no-no's when it comes to buying this stuff? does it fall out of spec if it's never been used? am i more likely to have success with a new build of an old design, or restoring on old amp?

Tubes don't fall out of spec unless they've been banged around. But you put one in a box on a shelf and leave it 40 years, and it should be the same as when you left it. Caps, OTOH, will at the very least need to be reformed, and can't always be brought back even after reforming them.

As for your last question, that all depends on your capabilities as an amp builder. I can take the exact parts used in a vintage SVT and put together an amp that sounds like ****, while someone else could make it sound golden.

[eyeballkid]

Jimmy, next computer youre ditchin....hit me up!