Vintagey crossed over cab ideas

RicPlaya · #1 05-27-2011, 02:16 PM

I know this subject has been discussed....but I was looking for more specific info.

I have changed my set up recently to a P with flats, I tend to like playing through 15's more with this set up versus my 410.

I was looking to build something that would capture the feel of the vintage drivers yet incorporate the lows of modern drivers. I know vintage type drivers have limitations with how much lows they can produce, yet they seem to.."sing" in a way that some of the modern stuff can't seem to capture, at least I haven't heard of anything modern that quite captures the vintage vibe.

So my though was to build a crossed over Bi-amped rig using a EV or Emminence 15 or 18 for the bottom and doing something for a top cab using modern vintage speakers such as Jensens, maybe a 212 or 210 configuation to get the the vintage vibe in the mid to low mid range, yet get the sweet lows from the modern driver with the bottom cab.

I have an Eden Navigator with built in cross over and also a DBX active crossover I could use depending on what style/slope would work/sound the best.

Sure there are modern cabs that sound great, ligther, better stats etc. so am I crazy fro thinking this way and has anyone tried something like this with any success?

Thanks

MuzikMan · #2 05-27-2011, 02:22 PM

I don't think you're crazy at all..........as long as you're willing to hit a few bumps in the road. Your proposition is likely to produce great results with a little experimentation. It sounds like you're going for a DI and miced cab mix, like the FOH sometimes do. I am interested in what you come up with.

RicPlaya · #3 05-27-2011, 02:27 PM

Hmm, threw me off a bit with the DI and mic'd cab comment. You mean as far as tone blend between the top vintagey cab compared to the modern bottom cab? If that's the case I think it would all depend on how much lows the tops could handle and where I crossed it over at would determine how much lows would come from the bottom cab. I need to choose the drivers for the tops carefully.

I was thinking too if i do pull this off woould I mic or DI to the FOH, and if I mic'd what cab would it be. But I do not want to get too far ahead of myself.

will33 · #4 05-27-2011, 03:36 PM

Guys do that using a lot of outboard equipment. xovers, 2 amps, separate cabs, etc. You can do in a single cab using the woofers needed for deep clean lows, then passive crossover to guitar speakers. Stay above 150-200 hz with the guitar speaker, use your current active xover to find the sweet spot. May sound a little sweeter to use an actual guitar amp to run the highs so you an get some tube grit along with the speaker breakup. Something like a 215 with a 30 watt, 112 or 210 guitar combo sitting on top.

Plstrns · #5 05-27-2011, 03:44 PM

EASY,

Play vintage cabs through whatever amp. You just need a pre out/ power in loop.

Sub cab x-over @ 100hz.

rpsands · #6 05-27-2011, 03:52 PM

A fEarful 15 sub is perfect for this. Build whatever top box you want.

Lots of amps have the right built-in crossovers too (drivecore, XTI, peavey ipr, etc.).

A vertical open backed 2x10 or 2x12 guitar cab on top would probably work well, xover between 100 an 200hz.

RicPlaya · #7 06-22-2011, 04:09 PM

I's like to go with somwthing vintagey without dealing with old speaker, and something that is modern but modeled a bit after the vintage stuff to get that oldschoolish tone. What are some current speakers on the market that would accomplish this? I'd hate to spend all that money on an old speaker only to have to recone it.

Tnx

derridiandrift · #8 06-22-2011, 05:09 PM

Maybe this..?

Jensen Mod series 10" driver for the top
Eminence Legend CB15 for the bottom

RicPlaya · #9 06-22-2011, 05:16 PM

Tnx

Ill take a look at those, the Legends are vintagey?

dhsierra1 · #10 06-22-2011, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rpsands

A fEarful 15 sub is perfect for this. Build whatever top box you want.

Lots of amps have the right built-in crossovers too (drivecore, XTI, peavey ipr, etc.).

A vertical open backed 2x10 or 2x12 guitar cab on top would probably work well, xover between 100 an 200hz.

Glad to hear someone else suggest this route, this is my fall build project, but I'm going w/two 12subs because the form factor works better (schleppage) for me. Then my old open back 2-12 guitar cab for the highs above 100-200Hz powered by a blackface Showman head

rpsands · #11 06-22-2011, 05:26 PM

Guitar cabs are definitely the way to go for tops.

I used to run a Blues jr. and a Dr. Bass 212 biamped with a pod XT live and it sounded pretty amazing.

RicPlaya · #12 06-22-2011, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rpsands

Guitar cabs are definitely the way to go for tops.

I used to run a Blues jr. and a Dr. Bass 212 biamped with a pod XT live and it sounded pretty amazing.

From what I have been reading you can't push guitar drivers too hard before they fart out or blow up. Not that I play super loud, but I would guess that rig has limitations for how loud you can play.

rpsands · #13 06-22-2011, 05:35 PM

Crossed over, you can hit them pretty hard. A guitar 2x10 with 50 watts will blow your mind as to how loud it gets.

dhsierra1 · #14 06-22-2011, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rpsands

Crossed over, you can hit them pretty hard. A guitar 2x10 with 50 watts will blow your mind as to how loud it gets.

big +1

Guitarists should be outlawed from having anything over 50 watts and a 12" or 2-10"s.....

RicPlaya · #15 06-22-2011, 06:27 PM

How about a 10 and 15 cab (something oldschoolish) for the top with a BFM tuba 24 for the bottom? Obviously I will need a volume controll for the bottom cab. I am encouraged with all the options I have for the top cab. For small gigs I can leave the tuba at home.

dhsierra1 · #16 06-22-2011, 06:58 PM

the fEARFUL 12sub or 15sub are hard designs to argue with for modern low end, they're geared toward making life better at the bottom for 5 string slingers among a few other things as well.

Bill FitzMaurice has a number of designs that are also popular for the very low and loud in a modern approach, also.

dhsierra1 · #17 06-22-2011, 07:00 PM

sorry, I see you're already familiar w/Bill's work, missed the Tuba part

I mention the fEARFULs though because they're pretty small for what they can do plus they're light due to the construction method.

jungleheat · #18 06-22-2011, 07:05 PM

There are really no end to your options, except your imagination and your budget.

Fender used to make an amp (originally in the 60s, then as a reissue in the 90s and maybe beyond) that came either with a 3x10 cab or as a 3x10 combo, I think it was a Vibroking or something like that. Probably not more than 50W but it would probably sound amazing with the crossed over feed from the dbx and should match up pretty well with a clean/modern 300-400W into a 1x15.

I think Stanley Clarke uses 2 Fender Hot Rod Deluxe amps (40W 1x12 or something like that or maybe he uses the HR Deville) on top of his main SWR stacks. I think he uses it more for a bit of "edge" than necessarily for a "vintage" sound (ie Motown or something).

For a more "hifi" sound, you could send the crossed over sound to a Roland JC120. I've actually used one by itself as a bass amp, and it sounds surprisingly good, it's 120W (60x2 if your using the stereo chorus/vibrato) and 2x12. The speakers are pretty sturdy, especially if they're only getting say 250Hz and up. It's also got a spring reverb tank, stereo effects loop (you could keep your bottom dry and your top "wet" and in stereo), and an extra channel (a la old Fenders) if you also wanted to plug in a guitar. Some of those features (like the FX loop) only apply to the "modern" version (last 10+ years). The older (70s/80s) amps didn't have the FX loop, although they do sound AMAZING if they are in good shape.

And then for me, before I had my Carvin PB200 and later my SWR Bass 350, I was using a vintage Carvin 1x15 with a Tube Works 100W combo (without the internal 12, which is not installed). The Tube Works is all MOSFET solid state, except the dirty channel which has a 12AX7 in the preamp. There's also a switch to combine the dirty and clean channels (which you can mix with their respective volumes). I have to say, although somewhat underpowered for playing with a full band and getting a big low end, that setup sounded AMAZING. I could get lots of great Chris Squire/John Wetton type sounds out of it. But it also has a pretty punchy nice super clean sound. If I get another cab (either a 2x10 or another 15), I would probably use that in parallel with the Bass 350.

Definitely, just using a guitar combo crossed over with the Eden 1x15 will be the "easiest". Maybe take the head and crossover to a local music store and see if they'll let you experiment with some different options. it really depends on your budget, and what kind of sound youre going for ("vintage" is pretty broad in terms of bass tones).

RicPlaya · #19 06-22-2011, 07:05 PM

No worries!

My thoughts with the sub is just to blend it into the tops (hence going with a 15 already as a mid-low mid driver) just to add booty to the vintage vibe. I never heard a FearFul or BFM cab, but from what I read the BFM is very clean and uncoloured and would hopefully just add bass as needed, thus my wanting to have a volume control for it to blend it into the tops depending on how loud I need to play.

rpsands · #20 06-22-2011, 07:07 PM

A tuba 24? You're nuts. Those things are huge and don't really compete in performance with a fEarful 12/sub for a balanced tone profile.

For electric bass, the BFM subs are total overkill. They are just so huge. Only if you are really poor and can't afford good drivers would I even consider it.

All you need is a fEarful sub and a guitar cab. 2-way is plenty here, with an electronic crossover. No need to get more complicated than that