Voicing differences between TC Electronic bass heads

[steve_rolfeca]

I'm looking for info about the voicing of the various TC heads (RH450 vs Classic 450 vs Staccato vs BG500 combos)...

Two questions:
1. Do the heads all have the same 5KHz low pass ceiling?

2. Do the combos have a more extended frequency response, and if so, does anyone on-list know if TC intends to release a separate BG-series head?

[KJung]

The RH450 and Classic are identical set neutral... same low pass and hi pass voicing, and the fixed EQ points on the Classic are the same as the default EQ points on the RH450.

The Staccato is quite different.... 5K lo pass is removed, and there is a mid scoop and bass boost baked into the voicing. From the clips I've heard, the hi pass filtering is not significantly lowered, but I've never played one live (way too 'voiced' out of the box for me).

The new combo heads have a variable lo pass filter called tweetertone which is kind of cool. We had that control on the tweaker software test that I was part of... pretty cool... really opens up the top end, but also allows for the original voicing, which is fat and warm and nice and low treble articulate!

Not sure if they are going to release that new combo head as a stand-alone (relatively large and relatively heavy), but I am pretty sure that the next version of their stand-alone heads will include that 'tweatertone' control (which was the number one recommendation coming out of the tweaker software test). I have no idea when that will be though.

K

[mccartneyman]

I've just reviewed the Staccato '51 with the RS210 cab, and the review contains a table of the differences between the RH450 & Staccato EQ points. AFAIK, the Combo Staccato head is exactly the same as the separate Staccato head. I should be getting the BG500 115 combo for review shortly. I'll ask if they plan a separate head.

Review URL: http://www.musicgearreview.com/artic...play/3428.html

[KJung]

Originally Posted by mccartneyman

I've just reviewed the Staccato '51 with the RS210 cab, and the review contains a table of the differences between the RH450 & Staccato EQ points. AFAIK, the Combo Staccato head is exactly the same as the separate Staccato head. I should be getting the BG500 115 combo for review shortly. I'll ask if they plan a separate head.

Review URL: http://www.musicgearreview.com/artic...play/3428.html

FYI... much more differences than just the center EQ points... different lo pass filter settings, different Q's and shelving slopes I believe on the EQ and baked in boosts in the low end and cut in the upper mid, plus different tubetone specs and compressor ratio, release, etc. settings according to TC.

I kind of ran out of steam on the tweaker test program by the time we received the full software that was used to change the RH450 into the Staccato, but maybe I'll hook everything up again and mess around with it.
Nice review!

[cassius987]

Thanks for the review.

I like the way the Rebel Head and Classic cut off the frequencies above 5 kHz or so. This has always been a gripe of mine, that more bass amps don't, because a lot of us don't utilize those frequencies at all (or not for anything musical). However I can see why the Rocco Prestia signature would NOT want to do that, too, considering his style.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by cassius987

Thanks for the review.

I like the way the Rebel Head and Classic cut off the frequencies above 5 kHz or so. This has always been a gripe of mine, that more bass amps don't, but a lot of us don't utilize those frequencies at all (or not for anything musical). However I can see why the Rocco Prestia signature would NOT want to do that, too, considering his style.

Interestingly, the inherent voicing of the Staccato is quite different from what most of us hear as Rocco's tone. Obviously, ROCCO playing through the Staccato makes him happy, and therefore it makes total sense. For those of us who are more 'mortals' on the bass guitar, the RH450 would be described by most (IMO) as more easily delivering Rocco's mid warm, punchy articulate tone than the deeper, more scooped and more sizzly Staccato. Kind of funny to me.

[mccartneyman]

I was impressed with the Staccato & RS210, especially the ability to save presets after tweaking the center points, and the amount of sound that little box kicks out. I seldom switch basses in mid-gig, but having the presets available is a nice feature for those who do. I couldn't hear too much difference when changing the midpoint on the Treble control, but maybe my ears are shot after 45 years of standing next to crash cymbals The difference was much more apparent in the Lo Mid & Hi Mid controls. I haven't tested the RH450, but I have a feeling from what I've heard on Youtube that, set flat, it would sound more like my Shuttle right out of the box. Since I've been using GB amps for 10 years, they obviously give me the sound I'm looking for, as the Staccato does for Rocco. Wish it had been around 30 years ago when I was in a horn band.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by mccartneyman

I was impressed with the Staccato & RS210, especially the ability to save presets after tweaking the center points, and the amount of sound that little box kicks out. I seldom switch basses in mid-gig, but having the presets available is a nice feature for those who do. I couldn't hear too much difference when changing the midpoint on the Treble control, but maybe my ears are shot after 45 years of standing next to crash cymbals The difference was much more apparent in the Lo Mid & Hi Mid controls. I haven't tested the RH450, but I have a feeling from what I've heard on Youtube that, set flat, it would sound more like my Shuttle right out of the box. Since I've been using GB amps for 10 years, they obviously give me the sound I'm looking for, as the Staccato does for Rocco. Wish it had been around 30 years ago when I was in a horn band.

Yeah, changing treble control shelving start points is pretty subtle, but the lo pass filtering really makes a difference. Great products, and I agree the RS210 is one of the 'deals of the century' out there. Not the best box design from a 'road worthiness' perspective, but it just sounds great... very Bag End like to me.... warm, mid present, and that uber smooth transition for the top of the driver to the tweeter... very organic and nice.

[mccartneyman]

Originally Posted by KJung

Anyway, I'll post the link in a while if anyone is interested. Great company... interesting products, and the loudest, fullest 450 watts I've ever heard!

Have to agree on that -- this amp kicks major booty at 450 watts. I had to add a second 112 cab to my Shuttle 6,0, boosting it to 600 watts, to get the same SPL I got out of the Staccato. I should have tested the Shuttle with the RS210, but didn't have time.

[steve_rolfeca]

Originally Posted by cassius987

...I like the way the Rebel Head and Classic cut off the frequencies above 5 kHz or so. This has always been a gripe of mine, that more bass amps don't, because a lot of us don't utilize those frequencies at all (or not for anything musical).

That's actually why I'm asking. I'm cheap, and lazy, too. I also double (triple?) as a sound guy and occasional guitarist.

As a result, I expect my gear to be flexible.

According to the clips I've heard so far, I would probably enjoy the RH450 for electric bass. But it would be 10 times more useful to me if the LPF was defeatable, so that I could use it with my 3-way cabs for 6-string bass, acoustic guitar, keys, or ??? as needed.

The idea that an exotic, high-powered digital amp from a world-class manufacturer can't do what I used to easily do with a beat-up SWR Studio 220, is a little depressing...

[KJung]

Originally Posted by steve_rolfeca

That's actually why I'm asking. I'm cheap, and lazy, too. I also double (triple?) as a sound guy and occasional guitarist.

As a result, I expect my gear to be flexible.

According to the clips I've heard so far, I would probably enjoy the RH450 for electric bass. But it would be 10 times more useful to me if the LPF was defeatable, so that I could use it with my 3-way cabs for 6-string bass, acoustic guitar, keys, or ??? as needed.

The idea that an exotic, high-powered digital amp from a world-class manufacturer can't do what I used to easily do with a beat-up SWR Studio 220, is a little depressing...

It's just a voicing decision. An SWR Studio 220 can't be made to sound like an RH450. The head totally kicks, and will do ANYTHING except a full out Marcus Miller SWR sizzle.. for that there is the Staccato!

Anyway, the variable lo pass (called 'tweetertone' by TC) should be a feature on the next generation of their amps... it's alread on the combo's.


Edit: That being said, I do prefer the Markbass execution, which voices the amp relatively flat all the way up (maybe 10K), and then the VLE (variable lo pass... called Vintage Loudspeaker Emulation) is there to tame it. And if you want to extend the treble beyond the gentle roll-off lo pass, they have a super wide Q treble control that I assume (with its 10K center point) that will extend the top end even more. Really nice!

[Rick Auricchio]

Originally Posted by steve_rolfeca

The idea that an exotic, high-powered digital amp from a world-class manufacturer can't do what I used to easily do with a beat-up SWR Studio 220, is a little depressing...

Nor would an Ampeg head. Nor would a dozen others.

And my Prius can't carry full sheets of plywood.

Horses for courses.

[steve_rolfeca]

True.

Still, I'm a little surprised at the amount of pre-shaping I'm hearing as I'm checking out various late-model lightweight heads.

I've mis-used a lot of amps over the years for multiple instruments (with the right speaker cabinets), with surprisingly good results.

HPF? LPF?

How did we ever get by for all those years without them?

[steve_rolfeca]

FYI, I got a response back from TC tech support today- I had asked about the possibility of sending them an RH450 for tweaking (no other changes, just a higher LPF setting).

The US rep was open to the idea, but apparently it involves much more than just plugging a laptop into the back of a production amp, and the folks in Denmark aren't set up to do custom orders.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by steve_rolfeca

FYI, I got a response back from TC tech support today- I had asked about the possibility of sending them an RH450 for tweaking (no other changes, just a higher LPF setting).

The US rep was open to the idea, but apparently it involves much more than just plugging a laptop into the back of a production amp, and the folks in Denmark aren't set up to do custom orders.

+1 The current heads are not set up to be used with the tweaking software.

[jesterbass]

Any of you guys know how to voice the Staccato '51 head as flat as possible? I mean center frequencies and boost/cut positions. I presume the RH450 is voiced flat and would like to voice it like that so that I have a better starting point for my eq. As is, the S51 head has quite a lot of treble which adds hiss to my tone since I play pretty lightly and use quite a lot of gain in the preamp stage. Another thing, do you know how the default voicing of the S51 is achieved? Is it a predefined eq curve that is placed before the controllable eq stage? Or is it just having some boost/cut when the knobs are at zero position? Tweaking with the head indicates the second, for example, with everything set flat, moving the high mid frequency center to the right, reduces the hiss. It's as if there is a cut in this band, at zero knob position. If any of this has been answered elsewhere, please point me. I felt this was a relevant thread. Thanks.

[babebambi]

Originally Posted by KJung

... the variable lo pass (called 'tweetertone' by TC) should be a feature on the next generation of their amps... it's alread on the combo's.


Edit: That being said, I do prefer the Markbass execution, which voices the amp relatively flat all the way up (maybe 10K), and then the VLE (variable lo pass... called Vintage Loudspeaker Emulation) is there to tame it. And if you want to extend the treble beyond the gentle roll-off lo pass, they have a super wide Q treble control that I assume (with its 10K center point) that will extend the top end even more. Really nice!

I really like the VLE too, especially on cab like the BagEnd with no HF attenuator. Can you describe how the TweeterTone differ form the VLE?

[KJung]

Originally Posted by babebambi

I really like the VLE too, especially on cab like the BagEnd with no HF attenuator. Can you describe how the TweeterTone differ form the VLE?

A thread back from the dead! Both the VLE and the 'tweetertone' are variable lo pass filters, from what I understand, and should work similarly. However, the 'tweetertone' control is only available on the new, lower end, heavy combo's and head. I assume we will see a tweetertone knob on the update of the RH450, but have no idea if that will happen at NAMM or years from now!

[jesterbass]

Originally Posted by jesterbass

Any of you guys know how to voice the Staccato '51 head as flat as possible? I mean center frequencies and boost/cut positions. I presume the RH450 is voiced flat and would like to voice it like that so that I have a better starting point for my eq. As is, the S51 head has quite a lot of treble which adds hiss to my tone since I play pretty lightly and use quite a lot of gain in the preamp stage. Another thing, do you know how the default voicing of the S51 is achieved? Is it a predefined eq curve that is placed before the controllable eq stage? Or is it just having some boost/cut when the knobs are at zero position? Tweaking with the head indicates the second, for example, with everything set flat, moving the high mid frequency center to the right, reduces the hiss. It's as if there is a cut in this band, at zero knob position. If any of this has been answered elsewhere, please point me. I felt this was a relevant thread. Thanks.

anybody?

[KJung]

Originally Posted by jesterbass

anybody?

The RH450 is not even remotely flat at its neutral setting, but is definitely less 'goosed' than the Staccato.

Being part of the 'tweaker' test group that was given the software that turned the RH450 into the Staccato, there is quite a bit of difference in the low and hi pass filtering (i.e., the RANGE of the Staccato in the lows and especially hi end) that can't really be matched just using the EQ.

For the top end, move the shelving treble control to around 6K or so, and cut it a lot... that does a reasonably good job of mimic'ing the 5k or so 'hard lo pass' built into the RH450.

For the low end... move your shelving start point all the way down on the bass control and cut a few 'lights' to take some of that huge boom out of the Staccato.

Can't remember the exact mid cut that the Staccato has baked in. If you PM DonovanBankhead (great TC dealer), I think he has the exact mid scoop frequency of the Staccato that you can attempt to bump up to more mirror the RH450.

However, you aren't going to completely get there, since again, part of the Staccato's voicing has to do with different Q's on the EQ, different lo and hi pass settings, etc. that can't be adjusted using just the EQ.

If you really want a bit more even, punchy, tight, warm tone (ironically, a tone more like the sound Rocco gets live), then the RH450 is a better bet and you might consider swapping your Staccato for an RH450 or Classic.

Hope that helps a little anyway.