Volume question-

[MichaelSmalley]

Hello- I recently got an Eden 1205 head. I play it through a Hartke Hydrive 410 cab.
My gigs are in medium sized clubs and bars, and it just doesn't seem like I'm getting the juice I should out of this amp. We play loud, but not ridiculously loud, just a reasonable level for rock. I have the gain set where it won't clip the preamp (but only just shy of that level), and to have the volume where I need it, I have to have the master set to about 3 o'clock... that's about 2/3's of the way up.

Do I just have unreasonable expectations about the output of the amp? My previous amp was a Hartke LH 1000, which I also had to have turned up quite high, but I was warned by several people that that amp was quiet for a 1000 watt head. Could the cabinet be a quiet cabinet (cab is rated @ 1000 watts as well).

I don't have tons of experience with many various rigs so maybe I just don't know what to expect, but I don't think I'm expecting an unreasonable volume level- we just don't play that loud.

-Mike

[arai]

Are you cranking the bass knob?

[JimWasHere]

Originally Posted by arai

Are you cranking the bass knob?

^^

Also, Eden is known for it's tone, not it's volume. Especially with that particular head, expect greatness rather than loudness.

EDIT; This is why I like seeing Eden backline on a gig. Uber tones, and not challenging foh for the volume wars.

[tekdiver500ft]

It is also important to realize that the position of the volume knob really doesn't mean anything. In your example, you aren't putting out 750 watts just because the knob is 3/4 of the way up. It depends on the type of taper in that pot, and the tolerances on it, and other variables. In my experience, it will get loud really fast after that point, so it's more of a parametric, or even logarithmic, taper than a linear one. Most importantly, if you are loud enough for your venue as it is, and you have power left, what does it matter where the knob is?

[cchorney]

Did you RTFM?
http://www.eden-electronics.com/info...205_Manual.pdf

My instinct is to wonder if you running the cab from the bridged output port (with the switch in the front panel appropriately selected). If you are running from "left" or "right" you are producing 325 watts at 8 ohms (your cab is an 8ohm cab). 300 watts should be plenty but if the cab is inefficient or you are cranking the lows, you could run out of headroom earlier than expected... especially if you are expecting the 1200 watts you would be getting if you were running out of the bridged output port and into a 4 ohm cab.

Also, please help us help you when asking a question. Post how you are configured and what your settings are, as well as the specs for your head and amp. I had to look up your owners manual for the head and the impedance rating for your cab - would have been way quicker if you presented this information up front.

[NoFretsNoWorry]

I have a WT 1205 and I LOVE it!

It didn't start off that way though. Eden has been through many transitions, including another buy out recently.

To get the max volume, I bridge the amp and use a D212XLT8 and a D210XST8 daisy-chained (corrected; thanks Bob C!) for a 4 ohm total load. 1000watts at 8 ohm program, with 2000 watts peaks should be all you need!

This being said, depending on the manufacturing date of your head, there were some gain issues in earlier heads. Namely, what you describe has been an issue and a mod was offered by Eden.

Eden WT-1205 Gain Mod

It took exchanging three WT1205's to finally find one that works properly. The first was too noisy even with gains turned down completely, the second had low volume distortion, the third: PERFECT!

But I could NOT be happier! This head does it all with the best tone I have ever played with! The channel switching allows me to switch between fretted to fretless to acoustic seamlessly! You can also stack the channels!

The WT 1205 has amazing TONE! Best growl and presence for fretless! Sustain out the wah-zoo!

Stick with it, it is worth the effort!

[Bob C]

Originally Posted by NoFretsNoWorry

To get the max volume, I bridge the amp and use a D212XLT8 and a D210XST8 in series for a 4 ohm total load. 1000watts at 8 ohm program, with 2000 watts peaks should be all you need!

I'm pretty sure you mean PARALLEL, not SERIES. Everything else in your post is helpful information.

[NoFretsNoWorry]

Originally Posted by Bob C

I'm pretty sure you mean PARALLEL, not SERIES. Everything else in your post is helpful information.

Thanks! You are correct!

I will edit the original post

[MichaelSmalley]

Originally Posted by cchorney

Did you RTFM?
http://www.eden-electronics.com/info...205_Manual.pdf

My instinct is to wonder if you running the cab from the bridged output port (with the switch in the front panel appropriately selected). If you are running from "left" or "right" you are producing 325 watts at 8 ohms (your cab is an 8ohm cab). 300 watts should be plenty but if the cab is inefficient or you are cranking the lows, you could run out of headroom earlier than expected... especially if you are expecting the 1200 watts you would be getting if you were running out of the bridged output port and into a 4 ohm cab.

Also, please help us help you when asking a question. Post how you are configured and what your settings are, as well as the specs for your head and amp. I had to look up your owners manual for the head and the impedance rating for your cab - would have been way quicker if you presented this information up front.

Yes I read the manual. It didn't have section titled "what to do if this amp isn't quite as loud as maybe you think it should be"

I run the amp bridged into my 1000 watt 8 ohm cab. My settings vary- I play several basses depending on the gig, and I've been experimenting with the amp to try and get it sounding how I would like it- volume wise.

Tekdiver500ft, I don't know why, but it just seemed wrong to have the master turned up that loud. I didn't want to blow the power amp or my cabinet. And for the size of the room, it just seemed wrong to need the volume turned up that high. That is probably mostly my inexperience with different rigs coming through...

Arai, no I'm not cranking the bass knob- when I boost the lows much I lose a lot of definition in my sound. My eq is generally pretty flat, although I'll use the enhance knob (which boosts bass) or the switchable bass or treble boost occasionally.

Again, I'm not sure anything is wrong with it- it just seemed weird to need to turn the volume up that loud. Perhaps the way things seem to me and the way they actually are is not always the same... I do have a lot to learn about amps.

[Gearhead17]

If your EQ is not setup crazy, then I think the master volume knob is up a little too high since your Gain knob is set correctly. With Eden heads, (at the correct gain setting) it's hard to turn up past the noon setting on the Master. I suggest trying the head out on a different cab ASAP and see if your amp head is working properly. Your Hartke cab may just not be loud enough for what you really need.

Please do not take offense in being accused of not reading the manual. I would say 90% of cases with amp heads not working correctly or acting odd is due to bass players not reading the manual. You seem to be in the 10% of people who do read it.

[MichaelSmalley]

Originally Posted by Gearhead17

If your EQ is not setup crazy, then I think the master volume knob is up a little too high since your Gain knob is set correctly. With Eden heads, (at the correct gain setting) it's hard to turn up past the noon setting on the Master. I suggest trying the head out on a different cab ASAP and see if your amp head is working properly. Your Hartke cab may just not be loud enough for what you really need.

Please do not take offense in being accused of not reading the manual. I would say 90% of cases with amp heads not working correctly or acting odd is due to bass players not reading the manual. You seem to be in the 10% of people who do read it.

Thanks for the advice. And I wasn't really offended about the owner's manual thing- but my question was not addressed by it. (I read the manuals for all my gear before I get it... part of my deliberation process.)

So why would a hartke hydrive 1000 watt 410 8ohm cab be louder or quieter than say... an ampeg 1000 watt 8ohm 410 cab?

[Gearhead17]

Originally Posted by MichaelSmalley

So why would a hartke hydrive 1000 watt 410 8ohm cab be louder or quieter than say... an ampeg 1000 watt 8ohm 410 cab?

Watts are not determining the volume - it's the design of the speaker that determines the loudness. It really depends on how the speaker is voiced. Cabinets with a hug emphasis on creating monster low end tend to be quieter than cabs that do not try to reproduce heavy amounts of low end. It comes down to how our ears pick up sound - check out the Equal Loudness Curve to learn more about it. Simply put, mids and highs are easier to perceive than low end.

So if a cab has more midrange in it's overall tone structure, it will usually "appear" louder to your ears because it is easier to hear. While the low end heavy cab may sound great, it MIGHT not have enough midrange to be heard in the band mix if you are looking to cut through.

Honestly, you have to judge gear based on how it sounds with a band, not by the published specs.

That was a very generalized answer and there are many more variables to that, but it is a good start.

[cchorney]

Originally Posted by MichaelSmalley

Yes I read the manual. It didn't have section titled "what to do if this amp isn't quite as loud as maybe you think it should be"

Originally Posted by Gearhead17

Please do not take offense in being accused of not reading the manual. I would say 90% of cases with amp heads not working correctly or acting odd is due to bass players not reading the manual. You seem to be in the 10% of people who do read it.

Originally Posted by MichaelSmalley

Thanks for the advice. And I wasn't really offended about the owner's manual thing- but my question was not addressed by it. (I read the manuals for all my gear before I get it... part of my deliberation process.)

Thx Gearhead17 for saying what I was thinking.

MichaelSmalley, glad you didn't take offense. I troubleshoot user problems for a living in the software industry, and you would be appalled how often intelligent people don't check the obvious things first, or at all, before I have to get involved. I couldn't really answer directly your question of "Do I just have unreasonable expectations about the output of the amp?" because of its subjective nature, so I gave you the best of what I could. Gearhead17 also makes a great point in that different cabs with the same number and size drivers will have huge apparent differences in volume. Maybe you should take your amp and cab to your local amp store and try out "your cab and head" vs "a similar cab and your head", and then "your cab and a similar head". Get that side by side comparison happening so you can rule out environmental and time factors.

[Bass_Pounder]

Originally Posted by MichaelSmalley

So why would a hartke hydrive 1000 watt 410 8ohm cab be louder or quieter than say... an ampeg 1000 watt 8ohm 410 cab?

Although the way the cabs/speakers are voiced making a difference was already mentioned, you need to also be aware of the differences in speakers efficiency.

Not all 4X10's are the same, even if they have similar frequency responses and wattage ratings.

A cab with just 3db less sensitivity needs twice the wattage to get as loud.

[dmusic148]

Here are some time-honored tricks for getting more from an amp: don't press buttons that increase or extend bass response, leave Bass control knob at or BELOW 12:00, and increase low-mids instead. This will fatten and punch-up your tone without using as much power.

[RDUB]

I've had experience with the 1205. A couple of things to consider:

If you're using the enhance knob much, it REALLY scoops out the mids, which are what really punch through the mix in a live situation. I almost never use it on any of my Edens, except to try to tame a really bad room tone.

If your Hartke cab wasn't loud enough with the Hartke 1000 watt head, I suspect it is not very sensitive, i.e., it needs a heck of a lot of power to get a sound out of it. I've noticed a huge difference between different makers' cabs with the same head.

[Dan55]

I believe that cab is sealed as opposed to ported, which could have an effect on its sensitivity.

Dan

[jungleheat]

Part of the problem might be leaving a bit too much "on the table" with the input gain, which could have a significant impact on your master volume needs. Generally a little "peaking" is fine, and depending on the amp you might be able go for a LOT of peaking before the sound noticeably changes (especially depending on your bass). With my old Kramer bass (single passive P style pickup) into my SWR head, I can crank the gain to about 2 o clock before it starts showing any distortion, and then even with the volume as low as it will go while still being on, it's too loud through a 4x10 for "quiet practice". With the master at half way it would be deafening.

[MichaelSmalley]

I didn't think a little preamp clipping was a bad thing, but the manual said not to... I thought maybe this preamp couldn't take the heat or something.

[dmusic148]

You can't hurt the pre by clipping it. It just (usually) doesn't sound very good. Normally you can turn it up enough to illuminate the preamp clip light quite a bit without hearing it. Then you have lots of gain to drive the amp with low noise(hiss).