Warm, deep & modular?

[Jared Lash]

I know exactly what I want. I just don't know what it is.

The best way I can describe the music my band does is groove based music with some electronic and dub flourishes. This means I use my clean tone about as often as I'm using synthy or low passed tones.

I tried a fEarful with clean powerful amps and it was great for the low end and with effects but my clean tone was too smooth and polite for my tastes. My current rig (Walkabout/Berg NV412) sounds fantastic clean but doesn't have the deep lows and the WB runs out of gas while the Berg isn't always an easy load in/out. Really I want something in between. Thick and deep but still very warm and not overly bright. In a perfect world I'd have two reasonably small/light cabs making transport easier but also giving me some flexibility for larger/smaller gigs.

I'm really thinking about getting a pair of Accugroove 115Ls and a warm, thick sounding head like the Aguilar DB750 or Carvin B1500. I'm thinking this might be the middle ground I'm looking for but I'm not sure.

Thoughts?

[SactoBass]

Originally Posted by Jared Lash

I know exactly what I want. I just don't know what it is.

There is something about that statement that struck me as funny......probably because that statement may in fact apply to a plethora of TB'ers!

Warm, deep, and modular, eh? Hmmm......how 'bout this idea. Take a Markbass Jeff Berlin combo amp and stick it on top of a matching Markbass NY151 cab. Two perfectly matching 15 inch speakers drawing the full 500 watts out of the LMII head. It meets the definition of warm, deep, and modular (the Berlin combo weighs 47 pounds and the matching extension cab weighs 37 pounds). I'm sure that is just one of many suggestions you will receive from TB'ers.

If you prefer that the amp head be separate, a pair of Markbass NY151 cabs with a LMIII on top would be nice.

Another idea is, a pair of Berg HT112ER 1x12 cabs (or one HT w/tweet and one EX w/o tweet) driven by a Markbass LMIII or F500 head.

EDIT: an AG db750 does not meet *my* definition of modular. I used to have one, and it's a heavy mother (although admittedly it weighs about the same as the Berlin combo amp).

[bongomania]

For compactness, the Audiokinesis Thunderchild delivers a very smooth, full tone in a small package, and I think two of them stacked would have a hefty amount of low end. Also I was very, very impressed by the punchy beefy tone from the Genz Uber 210; I think a stacked pair of those would have monstrous tone depth and heft.

As far as the amp, I think the ultimate modular setup today would be your choice of tone pedals into a pair of Markbass F500's or similar.

[lomo]

If your clean tone was too polite with the clean powerful amp then why not mess with it using a subtle pedal?

[Jared Lash]

Thanks for the response. I feel like I've been struggling to find the right set up for a very long time now.

I actually had a Berlin combo for a while. I was using it as a practice amp as well as for a jazz/pop trio I played with that didn't play at huge volumes. I even gave some serious thought to getting another 15 as an extension cab. I was afraid it wouldn't move enough air or get deep enough for me, but it's certainly a thought.

A pair of 112's or 115's (like the Berg, Accugroove, Markbass, Genz Benz etc) is kind of where my focus is. Hopefully with a defeatable tweeter, a smooth tweeter (that will play nice with OD & fuzz like the Accugroove, Audiokinesis etc) or no tweeter at all.

When I say modular, it's more in reference to the cabs. The NV412 is a tough fit for my car. Plus I like being able to take one cab to smaller gigs or jams. While I'd prefer a lightweight head, I'll lug around a heavy one if it gets me that thick, warm tone with plenty of low end goodness.

[greenboy]

Gotta say, as designer and user of fEarfuls for a few years now, I don't play tuxedo gigs. I don't do soft rock or cocktail jazz. Most of the time I am in ballztothewallz dual-screaming-guitarist bands where aggression is the only unifying characteristic. I can't even depend on hearing the sme amps two nights in a row. But I don't do anything particularly notable (other than sometimes using some dirt or grunge whan that's tasty) than to crank the volume up and let 'er rip.

So there are a few things I have to wonder about:

1) crossover/variable L-pad. If this is wrong or set low how much aggression is getting stifled? My experience with those variable L-pads (attenuators) on midrange drivers is such that I don't recommend them unless you want to suffer uneven performance degradation. Tests on a pro audio site seem to indicate that there's a huge disparity in the impedance values they present throughout their range, and this just HORKS a crossover and its intended voicing.

And the values get the worst near the middle of the attenuator and lower end of an attenuator. Which is not where you want to be even if they were load-stable, if you want aggressive voicing. I'm kinda half-assedly trying to find a soilution to this and poor power handling for these varibale L-pads, but a lot of people are getting by just fine with fixed value L-pads and I think a lot of them are doing metal or distorted guitar bands.

2) preamp/head choice. Should be self-explanatory. Some heads have hidden default voicing that isn't so efficacious for all styles. But if that is so, sometimes it can be overcome by EQ somewhat, but other times it cannot. Also, to me some dirt is nice to have around sometimes, so look at pedals if the head/preamp is not able to get nasty.

3) That plays into EQ skillz themselves. A lot of times boost (or big cut at a center close by) on one particular band of EQ is all it takes to get a particular flavor of ANTI-POLITE. If you have certain EQ habits it may be time to examine them in new light. If you have an anti-knobs philosophy then you need a new head/preamp, but really, a few knob/slider tweaks with decent EQ facilities is usually the answer here.

Anyway, drinking the "POLITE" koolaid is a big mistake. There's something else that is fouled up there.

[Jared Lash]

Originally Posted by bongomania

For compactness, the Audiokinesis Thunderchild delivers a very smooth, full tone in a small package, and I think two of them stacked would have a hefty amount of low end. Also I was very, very impressed by the punchy beefy tone from the Genz Uber 210; I think a stacked pair of those would have monstrous tone depth and heft.

As far as the amp, I think the ultimate modular setup today would be your choice of tone pedals into a pair of Markbass F500's or similar.

I read the entire thread that KJung started on the Thunderchild and am very intrigued. Of course, I'm always a little concerned with fuzz and overdrive through a tweeter. The Genz Benz are also cabs I'm considering. My back would love their NeoX series but the Uber bass is what would likely work for me. Maybe a pair of the 15s or a sincgle 212 with the option to expand to a second one if needed.

I dig the LMII & LMIII but the F500 seemed a little to bright to me. Maybe I should try it again.

Originally Posted by lomo

If your clean tone was too polite with the clean powerful amp then why not mess with it using a subtle pedal?

Good point. I DID try running my fEarful setup with a Tech 21 VT Bass to get more "warmth" or flavor and it's a great sound. But it also rolls off the deep lows quite noticeably. And it doesn't always play nice with other effects. I DO have a Darkglass Microtubes B3K that I'm very impressed with and which can do some subtle grit/growl but I'm not sure I want to make it an always on pedal. But it's definitely a thought.

[koobie]

Have you tried a large-ish tube amp with your NV412? I'm just getting my feet wet with a Walkabout and while it's a pretty cool & capable amp, it doesn't do the warm/huge thing that something like a DB728 tube power amp does. In the not quite so heavy/powerful tube amp category, you might try to find a Trace Quatra Valve. I didn't find the B1500 to excel at the fat/warm thing (the Walkabout is fatter, the B1500 far cleaner and far more powerful) though it is a very flexible, cost-effective amp.

As for modular cabs, I have two 3015-loaded TL606 type cabs and relatively speaking each is fairly capable on it's own. Stacking the two cabs sounds huge, very warm. It can be too much of a good thing, the bottom can really get boomy without cutting some lows. How the pair of these cabs compares to your NV412 I have no idea. I'm also playing four string basses, I don't need the low end extension that a lot of players here dig.

[rnilson]

Hey Jared,

So the issue with the Walkabout is lack of lows for the Dub/Electronic stuff? Why don't you like your aguliar head for this gig I would think it would be perfect.

I used a LMII for a while with 2 Mesa PH 115's while doing some heavy DnB stuff. (OC2>Fuzz>Moog Lowpass ect...) It gets the job done for sure but also sounded pretty good clean and with upright. With the LMII your clean bass will be a touch "high-fi" especially if you are digging on the Walkabout tubeyness for your clean bass sound. Even with the Vintage Speaker Emulator turned up it still sounded a bit solid state to me. You might add a tube pedal such as the EBS valve drive to fix that problem.

I personally have found that my current amp a Mesa Buster does it all for me and it sound like our bands are pretty similar. With that said the amp is hard to find, heavy 60lbs, only 200 watts, and you will find alot of comments about how it sounds too solid state for an all tube amp. To me it is every thing I wanted tonally. It does a great clean sound and takes pedals like a champ. It does sub bass lows very well. It also has a stomp control for the graphic EQ which is nice. I don't use it for upright though, I use a genz benz ML210 for that.

Good luck in your search....Does your band have any track out?
You should check out the new EP#2 on our website in my sig I think you will dig it.

[greenboy]

Seems odd to see POLITE mentioned, and then Thunderchild is a solution. Just sayin'. I mean, supposedly the Thunderchild is "polite" (hope I don't have to point at a backlog of posts on this matter - nor do I especially buy this if someone knows how to EQ) ; }

I DID try running my fEarful setup with a Tech 21 VT Bass to get more "warmth" or flavor and it's a great sound. But it also rolls off the deep lows quite noticeably --

Crap choice. I go for overdrive/distortion/fuzz boxes that have both some onboard EQ and effected/direct signal blend. Way before the VT stuff was all the rage there were a plethora of boxes that do dirty, and a lot of them are more appropriate in many signal chains. Anyway, I like the lows to remain non degraded and have some options of whether they are precise yet deep, tighter yet and tapered, or more a little more "tubey" - or even several simultaneously ; }

[rnilson]

Originally Posted by greenboy

Crap choice. I go for overdrive/distortion/fuzz boxes that have both some onboard EQ and effected/direct signal blend. Way before the VT stuff was all the rage there were a plethora of boxes that do dirty, and a lot of them are more appropriate in many signal chains. Anyway, I like the lows to remain non degraded and have some options of whether they are precise yet deep, tighter yet and tapered, or more a little more "tubey" - or even several simultaneously ; }

Low end and fuzz = Woolly Mammoth!

[bongomania]

Originally Posted by greenboy

Seems odd to see POLITE mentioned, and then Thunderchild is a solution. Just sayin'. I mean, supposedly the Thunderchild is "polite" (hope I don't have to point at a backlog of posts on this matter

The TChild is voiced differently than the fEarfuls, and it is 40% smaller than the fEarful 12+6. So if somebody is looking for more options, well there's another option. Also in my one tryout of the TChild, I would have described its highs as "smooth" rather than "polite"--but that's the nature of these subjective and potentially meaningless terms, about which nobody should care too much. Seems odd to me that you seem to get acid reflux every time somebody mentions the Audiokinesis cab.

[greenboy]

Originally Posted by bongomania

The TChild is voiced differently than the fEarfuls, and it is 40% smaller than the fEarful 12+6. So if somebody is looking for more options, well there's another option. Also in my one tryout of the TChild, I would have described its highs as "smooth" rather than "polite"--but that's the nature of these subjective and potentially meaningless terms, about which nobody should care too much. Seems odd to me that you seem to get acid reflux every time somebody mentions the Audiokinesis cab.

It's actually only a result of the whole POLITE Thing well before Tchild's were even talked about around here. And I think it's largely predicated on early LDS crossovers and use of crappy variable L-pads. Therefore I speak up. As for why I shouldn't be able to discuss things, well... lets' just say that I have an informed opinion and experience. Even if you do choose to dislike me.

And 40%? Did we forget that T-Child has a grille that sticks out too. Realistically, I've chosen a different grille method others are free to override if they wish, so actually my cab is probably about the same depth to extemity of grille, but a couple taller and wider if I recall. So the reality is a couple of inches in two directions for most packing purposes. So stop beating me on this already. That's acid reflux territory right there ; }

[rnilson]

Originally Posted by Jared Lash

I'm really thinking about getting a pair of Accugroove 115Ls and a warm, thick sounding head like the Aguilar DB750

That set up sounds freaking awesome! Expensive, but awesome.

[greenboy]

Originally Posted by bongomania

So if somebody is looking for more options, well there's another option.

Which I was an avid supporter of before anyone else around talkbass, probably. I've continued to state I hope they sell like hotcakes.

[jokerjkny]

Originally Posted by Jared Lash

Thanks for the response. I feel like I've been struggling to find the right set up for a very long time now.

I actually had a Berlin combo for a while. I was using it as a practice amp as well as for a jazz/pop trio I played with that didn't play at huge volumes. I even gave some serious thought to getting another 15 as an extension cab. I was afraid it wouldn't move enough air or get deep enough for me, but it's certainly a thought.

A pair of 112's or 115's (like the Berg, Accugroove, Markbass, Genz Benz etc) is kind of where my focus is. Hopefully with a defeatable tweeter, a smooth tweeter (that will play nice with OD & fuzz like the Accugroove, Audiokinesis etc) or no tweeter at all.

When I say modular, it's more in reference to the cabs. The NV412 is a tough fit for my car. Plus I like being able to take one cab to smaller gigs or jams. While I'd prefer a lightweight head, I'll lug around a heavy one if it gets me that thick, warm tone with plenty of low end goodness.

already some great pieces of advice given by the guys in the thread already...

i'll just add that my current swr headlite + berg ht112er (x2) setup sounds EFFING UNREAL w/ my little phatty. big fat rich low end, with plenty of upper end air to make my synthie stuff sound fantastic. really hard to think there's anything better.

and yea, sounds nice w/ my basses.

[PunkSweeper]

The one with the bass knob.

[rpsands]

My fEarful is anything but polite, but I use a brutal MXR M80 for distortion instead of a pansy Sansamp

If I had to guess I'd say you missed the boat on the fEarfuls. My tonal goals are pretty much exactly the same as yours. I've never needed anything more than the 15/6 pushed with a power amp.

[greenboy]

I use low tunings much of the time (though F#0 has given way to Hipshot A0/G0) and thick synth layering with dubby envelope filtering too, BTW.

[Matt Dean]

Mesa M6/9 = massive amounts of warm, clean deep bass. I use a M6 for my bass work and I'm playing similar styles... reggae, dub, electronica and rock. I'm moving more towards 50% clean and 50% effected and the M6 is stellar in handling both.