Warwick Micro; 1000 watts 4 ohms!

[jeffbonny]

I don't care one bit for the adversarial posturing of the Warwick promo vid but is anyone going to deny that there are some pretty bogus power ratings out there?

[KJung]

Originally Posted by jeffbonny

I don't care one bit for the adversarial posturing of the Warwick promo vid but is anyone going to deny that there are some pretty bogus power ratings out there?

I'm not sure there really are.

Of course, there are power specs/ratings at much higher THD than others with some executions, , but in the amplification of the bass guitar, and the sophisticated power management systems in some of these amps, that is not necessarily a 'better or worse' thing IMO and IME, since my primary hobby is playing every class D and/or SMPS amp known to man

And, per the above, the Warwick video mis-identifying the basic specs of the ICE modules used by some of their competitors, and purposefully understating the power by only quoting half of a dual mono power amp is as cheezy as anything IMO. You can't wear the white robe and cry foul when you are fouling!

[B-string]

Well I will weigh in to say more power amp sections are more neutral. The tone shaping and signal manipulation is more in the preamp design. It would make little sense to have a power amp that is not accurate. Exception to this the dual-rail class H use by Gallien where the intent is to achieve a unique character from "riding the rails" as stated by Mr Gallien.
I personally find the argument against using class D self defeating. Most tour and in many cases permanent PA installations are no longer sporting 90 lb lead sled class A/B. To say that class D is incapable (most widely used high power FOH) means all the expense of buying a product (bass amp in this case) will be lost by the FOH system. Might as well just buy a simple combo or a good DI box?

[jeffbonny]

Originally Posted by KJung

I'm not sure there really are.

Of course, there are power specs/ratings at much higher THD than others with some executions, , but in the amplification of the bass guitar, and the sophisticated power management systems in some of these amps, that is not necessarily a 'better or worse' thing IMO and IME, since my primary hobby is playing every class D and/or SMPS amp known to man

Far be it for me to pick a fight on this knowing I'm not nearly as well armed with experience as you! I'm just going on what experience I do have using amps of the same supposed power rating (with the same cab) that had very noticeable differences in real volume. For me this question has always seemed like horsepower ratings in cars or bikes: fudgable.

[B-string]

Originally Posted by jeffbonny

I don't care one bit for the adversarial posturing of the Warwick promo vid but is anyone going to deny that there are some pretty bogus power ratings out there?

Yes the G-K MB800 outputs 804 watts @ 4 ohms (rated THD) and will provide a sustained burst of over 1Kw. Class D, SMPS. Some "other" companies would call this a 1Kw amp. not a 800 watt amp head.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by jeffbonny

Far be it for me to pick a fight on this knowing I'm not nearly as well armed with experience as you! I'm just going on what experience I do have using amps of the same supposed power rating (with the same cab) that had very noticeable differences in real volume. For me this question has always seemed like horsepower ratings in cars or bikes: fudgable.

This is a tough issue, and is similar to some of the 'cab design' threads. There are pure performance issues, and there are tonal issues. And the two are confounded. Hard to just look at a piece of paper and say 'well, this is better' when if comes to amplification of a 'live/organic' signal source. Pure, open, distortion free power for my stereo, or front of house reproduction... I get it. A bit of dirt and compression and breakup and god knows what in a bass amp.... for many, a beautiful thing.

IMO though. A good TBer buddy of mine said a very insightful thing to me a while back when we were talking about this issue. Basically 'sometimes people measure the wrong things'. By that, I think he meant that given the massively, non-linear, multiway interactions of every component of a backline rig, it is pretty hard to predict what it will sound like even with dozens of correctly measured specs, versus the two or three typically provided (accurate or not).

[husky123]

Originally Posted by WarwickOfficial

Dear sir. I do understand that you are qualified in your individual field and know what you are talking about. However this is, for us, more an effort to lift the clouds hovering over power ratings of Bass Amps in general.

We do not really want to claim that what other brands do is bad. I am sure most manufacturers have decent intentions when marketing their amps.

What is in need of happening is a set standard like you have in both Pro Audio and Hi-Fi.
It is not a secret that many bass amps, whatever the topology, are rated at 3 ,5 and even 10% THD...As well as what impedance it should be rated at.

Of course there are many parameters that influence sound and it is very difficult to determine the quality and sound of an amp from reading the specs. But if we could at least agree on what is an accurate way to measure power, we could perhaps start a discussion on the topic.

You already replied to his post (more appropriately) on 1/30?

[KJung]

Originally Posted by husky123

You already replied to his post (more appropriately) on 1/30?

My guess is, he checked in with the design engineer for more ammunition

[B-string]

Originally Posted by KJung

My guess is, he checked in with the design engineer for more ammunition

The trouble I see is he came back 22 cal. against a 50mm?

[KJung]

Originally Posted by B-string

Yes the G-K MB800 outputs 804 watts @ 4 ohms (rated THD) and will provide a sustained burst of over 1Kw. Class D, SMPS. Some "other" companies would call this a 1Kw amp. not a 800 watt amp head.

It is such an interesting dynamic. My Glock Blue Soul has a highly rated, high end class D/SMPS module (can't remember the manufacturer... you can see it through the heat grills) that is rated at 1000 watts into 4ohms at reasonable distortion levels. Glock rates their amp at 650 watts at REALLY low distortion levels.

The low end of that amp is totally wide and noncompressed (my guess is, the Warwick amp might use a similar, or maybe even the same module if at least the spirit of the video is to be believed). I love that aboutthe Glock... it is a HAMMER down low, but also love some other amps that get just as loud, but are much more chewy and rough down there due to design decisions/power management designs, etc.

Hard to balance tonality and 'bass guitar amplification performance' with pure spec's, even moreso in speaker cabs.

[Chef]

You guys be nice to each other while discussing things!!!

thanks.

[tombowlus]

Originally Posted by B-string

Yes the G-K MB800 outputs 804 watts @ 4 ohms (rated THD) and will provide a sustained burst of over 1Kw. Class D, SMPS. Some "other" companies would call this a 1Kw amp. not a 800 watt amp head.

Yes, and some amp companies which claim that their amp puts out 900 watts are only able to achieve this rating for a "micro burst" that is not long enough to form even the initial attack of the note.

So yes, IME/IMHO, there is a good bit of variation in terms of what you get at the speaker output, even among amps using the same B&O output sections.

[WarwickOfficial]

Yes, I will consult with our engineer and he will produce a comprehensive reply, but the 250 W ice power module is a bridged module that is built to produce 250W mono at 2.7 ohm. It is not a 2x250W module. I am not trying to attain ammunition, but rather more insights into how and why ratings are the way that they are. More details will follow...and I hope the end result is a productive dialogue that can bring light to the subject at hand. Thanks!

[Chef]

Again:
post nicely, or don't.

tech discussion is fine.
pointed personal remarks aren't.

[Chef]

Cool; thanks for the followup, and I'll look forward to hearing back on that!

Originally Posted by WarwickOfficial

Yes, I will consult with our engineer and he will produce a comprehensive reply, but the 250 W ice power module is a bridged module that is built to produce 250W mono at 2.7 ohm. It is not a 2x250W module. I am not trying to attain ammunition, but rather more insights into how and why ratings are the way that they are. More details will follow...and I hope the end result is a productive dialogue that can bring light to the subject at hand. Thanks!

[tombowlus]

Originally Posted by WarwickOfficial

What is in need of happening is a set standard like you have in both Pro Audio and Hi-Fi.
It is not a secret that many bass amps, whatever the topology, are rated at 3 ,5 and even 10% THD...As well as what impedance it should be rated at.

Of course there are many parameters that influence sound and it is very difficult to determine the quality and sound of an amp from reading the specs. But if we could at least agree on what is an accurate way to measure power, we could perhaps start a discussion on the topic.

This is a valid point, and one which we have been dealing with, in our own way, at Bass Gear Magazine when we do our bench testing.

One difference right off the bat is that with home audio and pro audio, you are feeding the amplifier a relatively controlled input. Sure, the program material varies, but what you get out of a CD player or a mixing console is a lot more consistent and uniform than what you might get from any of a number of instruments which serve as your input source. Some active, some passive, some being run through a bevy of effects, some played with a light touch, some ruthlessly slammed...

There are many different factors which come into play when testing musical instrument amplifiers, and in particular, electric bass and double bass pose some interesting amplification scenarios. We feel very confident in our amplifier bench testing, but it took us a while to develop our tests, and we are still working with the folks at Audio Precision to come up with tests which are ever more representative of how an amp will perform in the real world on a gig.

Tom.

[jnewmark]

The sides are real wood, according to the above rep, an Bill Fitz Maurice disagreed more often than not with Agedhorse. Personally I subscribe to the " if it sounds like liquid Jesus, coated in bacon grease, we're all gonna buy one " theory.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by WarwickOfficial

Yes, I will consult with our engineer and he will produce a comprehensive reply, but the 250 W ice power module is a bridged module that is built to produce 250W mono at 2.7 ohm. It is not a 2x250W module. I am not trying to attain ammunition, but rather more insights into how and why ratings are the way that they are. More details will follow...and I hope the end result is a productive dialogue that can bring light to the subject at hand. Thanks!

On that, you are completely incorrect. The 125x2 module used, I believe in the GKMB500, the Aguilar TH350, the Genz 6/600 series amps, etc. is rated by the manufacturer to put out approximately 500 watts with reasonable distortion levels at 4ohms. As you can see though, and to your point, there are quite a few different 'marketing power ratings' with that module.

The confusion comes in with the 250 x 2 module, which is rated at approximately 500 watts bridged at 8ohms, but has no 4ohm bridged detailed spec. It would make sense, that with proper heat management, that module would put out a pretty big wump. I believe the Aguilar TH500 and the Genz 9 and 900 series amp use that module.

To your point, if I have my info correct (obtained from lots of guys opening up there units and reporting what is inside on TB, along with pictures.), there are a wide range of 'marketing power specs' provided for amps using these same modules. Yet, from my experience with them all, performance pretty much lives up to the 'published spec', albeit with very different tonality and feel. Lots more stuff going on inside these amps than just dropping a power module inside and hooking up a preamp.

Don't mean to be doggin' you so much here. I'm sure your amp sounds very good (although again, I can't believe you aren't surprised at many of the aesthetic comments... that design is an 'unusual choice').

[Rickett Customs]

Originally Posted by Chef

I had one of those Fishers. I think I still do, back in the closet of my rehearsal room.
Nice amp.

I've got one in my shop, only difference is that the one I have has a turntable, 8 track and cassette..........

[Smallequestrian]

Originally Posted by WarwickOfficial

Yes, I will consult with our engineer and he will produce a comprehensive reply, but the 250 W ice power module is a bridged module that is built to produce 250W mono at 2.7 ohm. It is not a 2x250W module. I am not trying to attain ammunition, but rather more insights into how and why ratings are the way that they are. More details will follow...and I hope the end result is a productive dialogue that can bring light to the subject at hand. Thanks!

There is a module by them that outputs 250w mono at 2.7ohm, but its not the module that the manufacturers are using.