Watts or Speakers?

[klejst]

I have heard both sides of this story of what really makes a rig a loud sounding rig. It is the number of speaker you have or how many watts the head you are using is pumping through them? I have heard people asking if they upgraded their head from say 300w to 500w if it would make a huge difference, many have said no, but going from the 4x10 cab they are using to say a 8x10 would help it out being louder. So I am looking for opinions here of which is it, speaker number, number of watts, or (of course) both?

[Selta]

Well, you can't just randomly add any cab to your stack and expect more volume (i.e. adding a 1x15 to a 4x10). Doubling your wattage will only net you 3dB in theory - in practice, less. So, if you're looking for volume, the best bet is to get a 2nd, matching cab. If you have XYZ brand 4x10, get another XYZ 4x10.

[Phalex]

I think it's more a combination of both. If you have a buttload of power into a single 8" speaker, you'll destroy the speaker without generating enough sound to fill a large room.

If you have a buttload of speakers with a 25 watt amp, you won't be able to generate enough sound to fill a large room.

[FretlessMainly]

As a starting point, both matter, but it is generally true that increasing the wattage as you posted isn't going to make a huge difference. Moving more air with more/larger speakers is likely to get you more. An added element here is impedance. One of the best things you can do if you are running your amp at 8 ohms (by using an 8 ohm cabinet) is to get a second 8 ohm cabinet and run them in parallel (two 8 ohm cabinets in parallel = 4 ohms overall impedance). What you've done here is to increase both your wattage (you generally get about 50% more wattage at 4 ohms as opposed to 8 ohms) and your speaker surface area.

[chadhargis]

It's all about moving air.

Having 1000 watts into a single 4" speaker isn't going to be nearly as loud as 300 watts pushing 8 10's.

What you are most concerned with is clipping. Clipping occurs in a few places.

1) At the input, which is why you have a gain control
2) At the amp, once it's pushed beyond it's "happy place" an amp tends to clip or run less efficient. That's why you see guys buying big wattage rigs in the name of "headroom".
3) At the speaker. This is what you see most. The speakers themselves can't handle the amount energy pushed at them and they will "fart out" or get "blatty".
4) At your ears. This is a bad thing, don't play so loud!

[Aussie Player]

I move heads of 350 W and 500 W between cab's with2x10's, 2x15's and 8x10's and adding more speakers does increase the preception of volume and also adds clarity and punch to the sound.

[klejst]

Thanks for the responses so far. I am not looking to buy or add anything to my rig, however I was just asking that general question because I always wondered.

[Sundogue]

Look, watts matter very little. Number of speakers matter more, but still not as much as you think.

This is what matters...

Displacement limitation.

Displacement limitation is how much actual usable power a cabinet can handle before it won't get any louder.

Wattage rating is ONLY the amount of watts the voice coil can take before melting. That's all it means. Nothing more and nothing to do with volume. Manufacturers only tell you the wattage based on the total of the speakers thermal rating (i.e. - four 100 watt speakers = 400 watts total for the cab).

What they won't tell you is that their cab is displacement limited to about half the wattage rating. Anything above that is wasted and only creates heat and the speakers will fart out and/or blow long before they reach the wattage rating.

So... having said all that, what matters to get more volume is more speakers. The more speakers you have, the more total displacement you have going for you. Higher sensitivity drivers will raise the output per watt of a cab, but will do so at the expense of the low end (like a Schroeder for example).

"There's no replacement for displacement."

[Aussie Player]

Originally Posted by Sundogue

Look, watts matter very little. Number of speakers matter more, but still not as much as you think.

This is what matters...

Displacement limitation.

Displacement limitation is how much actual usable power a cabinet can handle before it won't get any louder.

Wattage rating is ONLY the amount of watts the voice coil can take before melting. That's all it means. Nothing more and nothing to do with volume. Manufacturers only tell you the wattage based on the total of the speakers thermal rating (i.e. - four 100 watt speakers = 400 watts total for the cab).

What they won't tell you is that their cab is displacement limited to about half the wattage rating. Anything above that is wasted and only creates heat and the speakers will fart out and/or blow long before they reach the wattage rating.

So... having said all that, what matters to get more volume is more speakers. The more speakers you have, the more total displacement you have going for you. Higher sensitivity drivers will raise the displacement in a cab, but will do so at the expense of the low end (like a Schroeder for example).

"There's no replacement for displacement."

You are perfectly correct, but it can srtill be said in oen sentence. "I move heads of 350 W and 500 W between cab's with2x10's, 2x15's and 8x10's and adding more speakers does increase the preception of volume and also adds clarity and punch to the sound".

[Sundogue]

Originally Posted by Aussie Player

You are perfectly correct, but it can srtill be said in oen sentence. "I move heads of 350 W and 500 W between cab's with2x10's, 2x15's and 8x10's and adding more speakers does increase the preception of volume and also adds clarity and punch to the sound".

Except that "one sentence" says nothing about displacement limitation.

There are at least ten posts a day on this forum asking about "watts". Either how much an amphead can put out, or how much a cab can handle. And it's all a bunch of useless information without knowing the displacement limitation of the cab itself.

And it isn't just the number of speakers either. I have a speaker cab with a displacement limitation higher than it's thermal rating and with enough power it's as loud as a 610 and it only has one single 15" speaker in it. So while a 410 cab has more speakers than my single 15", the displacement limitation with my cab allows me to use a ton of power and it will blow away any 410, bar none. And if I added another 15" cab like it, I could easily blow away any 810 with just two 15" speakers.

If manufacturers would list the actual usable wattage rating (displacement limitation) instead of the thermal rating (speaker wattage handling for the voice coil), these discussions would go away completely. Everyone would then know that if they have a cab rated at 200 watts (displacement limitation) and they had a 200 watt head but needed more volume, they would automatically know that getting a more powerful head would do absolutely nothing to increase volume. But when they have that same 200 watt head and cab rated for 400 watts (thermal rating), they assume more power equals more volume.

But yeah, in general, more speakers equals more volume. But a displacement limitation rating would do more good for everyone (except for the profits of manufacturers because the thermal rating looks better on paper).

[Bassdirty]

Originally Posted by Sundogue

Except that "one sentence" says nothing about displacement limitation.

There are at least ten posts a day on this forum asking about "watts". Either how much an amphead can put out, or how much a cab can handle. And it's all a bunch of useless information without knowing the displacement limitation of the cab itself.

And it isn't just the number of speakers either. I have a speaker cab with a displacement limitation higher than it's thermal rating and with enough power it's as loud as a 610 and it only has one single 15" speaker in it. So while a 410 cab has more speakers than my single 15", the displacement limitation with my cab allows me to use a ton of power and it will blow away any 410, bar none.

With all due respect,That doesnt really address the question.
I don't think its a "whats louder 1 100" speaker or 100 1 " speakers question...or a fearful vs. the world question either."

The OP's question (as I understand it) Could be:

What would be louder?1.) A fearful 15/6 powered by 1000w, or 2.) Two 15/6s being powered by 500w ?

(Obviously this is hypothetical, as I'm not sure how many watts we are talking here)


JMO..yMMV..some assembly required...

[lomo]

Both play a role, but speaker area trumps wattage every time!

[dincz]

Originally Posted by lomo

Both play a role, but speaker area trumps wattage every time!

Speaker area by itself means nothing unless you know the maximum cone excursion as well. In short, you need to move cubic inches of air, not square inches.

[Sundogue]

Originally Posted by Bassdirty

With all due respect,That doesnt really address the question.
I don't think its a "whats louder 1 100" speaker or 100 1 " speakers question...or a fearful vs. the world question either."

The OP's question (as I understand it) Could be:

What would be louder?1.) A fearful 15/6 powered by 1000w, or 2.) Two 15/6s being powered by 500w ?

(Obviously this is hypothetical, as I'm not sure how many watts we are talking here)


JMO..yMMV..some assembly required...

I don't think I even mentioned a fEARful in my replies.

However, you can't just go by the number of speakers. The sensitivity of the speaker in question and the displacement limitation of the cab has everything to do with it.

Generally speaking, as lomo put it..."Both play a role, but speaker area trumps wattage every time!" Essentially more speakers gives you more displacement. But that depends on the displacement of the cabs in question.

One would think a 410 should be louder than a 115, but that is not always the case. Wonder why?

As to the OP, going from 300 watts to 500 watts isn't going to matter much anyway, especially if the cab in question is already displacement limited to say, 200 watts. In that case, it wouldn't matter if he pumped a 1000 watts into it.

[dincz]

On the rare occasions when manufacturers publish more than simply the thermal power rating, you can actually do some revealing calculations. For example:

Aguilar SL112
Power Handling: 250 watts RMS, 500 watts peak
Sensitivity: 99.9 dB 1W 1M
Max SPL: 120db

So the maximum sound level this cab is capable of producing (20dB higher than when driven with 1W) is reached at 100W. Give it 250W and it won't catch fire, but it won't be any louder than with 100W.

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by Bassdirty

What would be louder?1.) A fearful 15/6 powered by 1000w, or 2.) Two 15/6s being powered by 500w

# 2 would be louder. Every doubling of speaker count gets you 3dB more sensitivity, which is the equivalent of doubling power. And halving of impedance gets you another 3dB, if the amp will handle the load. Plus in your example the 1,000 watts into one 3015LF loaded cab is 500 more than it can use anyway.

Originally Posted by dincz

On the rare occasions when manufacturers publish more than simply the thermal power rating, you can actually do some revealing calculations. For example:

Aguilar SL112
Power Handling: 250 watts RMS, 500 watts peak
Sensitivity: 99.9 dB 1W 1M
Max SPL: 120db

So the maximum sound level this cab is capable of producing (20dB higher than when driven with 1W) is reached at 100W. Give it 250W and it won't catch fire, but it won't be any louder than with 100W.

You're assuming that the Max SPL of 120dB is measured. It isn't. It's calculated, and isn't worth the paper it's written on. No one actually measures maximum SPL, not even JBL and the like. And any 1x12 that actually has 99.9dB sensitivity also has no low end. The trade off for high sensitivity (more than 97dB per driver) is reduced lows; that's just the nature of how speakers work. So either the sensitivity isn't 99.9dB or its response drops like a stone below 150Hz.

Your point is revealing, though. If the calculated Max SPL is 120dB then the actual 1m/1w sensitivity would be 120 minus 24: 96dB/watt. That would be a believable figure.

[1n3]

Originally Posted by Phalex

I think it's more a combination of both. If you have a buttload of power into a single 8" speaker, you'll destroy the speaker without generating enough sound to fill a large room.

If you have a buttload of speakers with a 25 watt amp, you won't be able to generate enough sound to fill a large room.

The second option is the easy choice. A Kappalite 3015 has 100dB sensitivity from 150-2000hz. Four of those would be 106dB at 1w/1m. At 25 watts, that should be 120dB, which would be a very gigable rig for me.

Watts are cheaper now, but speakers remain equally (if not more) important, IMO.

[billfitzmaurice]

Originally Posted by 1n3

The second option is the easy choice. A Kappalite 3015 has 100dB sensitivity from 150-2000hz. Four of those would be 106dB at 1w/1m. At 25 watts, that should be 120dB, which would be a very gigable rig for me.

You've got the right idea, the speakers are more important than the watts, but you're a bit off target. The entire point behind the 3015 is that it can handle some 300 watts before exceeding xmax. If you're going to use 6.25 watts per driver get drivers that are appropriate for that application, and save two hundred dollars. Each.

[1n3]

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

You've got the right idea, the speakers are more important than the watts, but you're a bit off target. The entire point behind the 3015 is that it can handle some 300 watts before exceeding xmax. If you're going to use 6.25 watts per driver get drivers that are appropriate for that application, and save two hundred dollars. Each.

I was trying to use the previous poster's example, with a speaker that I thought would be familiar to more readers. How 'bout if I substitute four D130s?

[ButtUglyJeff]

I think there is also something to be said for speaker elevation, especially for the musician. You often read here about base players adding a single 15" to a 210 or 410 setup, and feeling a boost in volume. Almost all single 15"s are rated lower then counterpart 210s and 410s. But by putting that new cab below your existing rig, the current speakers become more elevated, and therefor easier to hear.

The physics say your new rig might not be more powerful, because the new cab is holding the old cab back. But the old cabinet is at a more optimal listening level. Weaker rig, with a louder feel, when an amp stand could have accomplished more...