Weber 15 vintage replacement driver?

RicPlaya · #1 05-31-2011, 02:20 PM

Anyone ever play through one?

I was looking at these as a vintage type driver. I know Weber doesn't post any specs, but it appears they are modeled after the vintage gear.

Tnx

BassmanPaul · #2 05-31-2011, 04:46 PM

If they don't publish the TS specs for the driver how do you properly design an enclosure to suit it or confirm that it would be a good candidate for a replacement in an existing cabinet

RicPlaya · #3 05-31-2011, 05:11 PM

I will call them and talk to an engineer if need be. I have done it before and have had good results.

Specs are important, but they don't tell the whole story. The most important factor to me is how to they sound and perform? Do people like the tone the speaker creates? I have read very limited reviews on the Weber 15, and from what I heard people say they capture that vintage tone. But I want to hear if anyone in the TB community has had any experience with them.

silky smoove · #4 05-31-2011, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RicPlaya

Specs are important, but they don't tell the whole story. The most important factor to me is how to they sound and perform?

that's exactly what the specs will tell you, provided you know how to model and interpret them.

One of the hallmarks of crappy drivers are nonexistent specs.

RicPlaya · #5 05-31-2011, 06:04 PM

Are these crappy drivers then?

I am not trying to get into a debate of the importance of specs here. I know the importance of specs, especially for cab building. But what I am looking for by todays standards is a tone generated by..crappy specs from old technology. Would anyone say Jammerson's tone was crappy? What about Macca's in the day? Some would say it's not thier cup of tea, some go after that tone...it all depends on what the person likes. Are there modern drivers that capture that tone? These are rated for 175 watts, a little more hefty then reissues that were essentailly guitar speakers back in the 60's and 70's.

billfitzmaurice · #6 05-31-2011, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RicPlaya

Are these crappy drivers then?

Probably not, but they aren't state of the art either.

Quote:

I am not trying to get into a debate of the importance of specs here.... These are rated for 175 watts, a little more hefty then reissues that were essentailly guitar speakers back in the 60's and 70's.

Watts mean nothing. In terms of usable output that's where the specs come in, and IMO no specs=no sale. What 'vintage tone' means is thin lows, meaty mids and not a lot of output capability. That's how vintage drivers sounded not because there was anything magical about them but because that's what they were capable of. Using Jamerson as an example isn't a very good one, as it's common knowledge that he recorded direct to the board.

KramerBassFan · #7 05-31-2011, 08:02 PM

Just throw two Eminence Beta's in a undersized box, get a 100w or less tube amp, and you will have Vintage Tone in spades.

RicPlaya · #8 06-01-2011, 03:35 PM

Quote:

billfitzmaurice;10977076]Probably not, but they aren't state of the art either.

What would you prefer as a new reissue vintage driver if in fact you were tempted or commissioned to build something like that?

Quote:

Watts mean nothing. In terms of usable output that's where the specs come in, and IMO no specs=no sale. What 'vintage tone' means is thin lows, meaty mids and not a lot of output capability. That's how vintage drivers sounded not because there was anything magical about them but because that's what they were capable of.

These speakers get good reviews with guitar players. I know the vintage speaker are essentially guitar speakers so that's why I thought i would ask about them.

Quote:

Using Jamerson as an example isn't a very good one, as it's common knowledge that he recorded direct to the board

That is true, but I know he played live through an old Ampeg with a 15 from what I have read.

billfitzmaurice · #9 06-01-2011, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RicPlaya

These speakers get good reviews with guitar players. I know the vintage speaker are essentially guitar speakers so that's why I thought i would ask about them.

The needs for guitar drivers are almost the complete opposite of those for bass. They're designed to clip at low power levels and to have nasty break up modes. That doesn't mean that bass can't sound good through them, just that they won't do so at other than low levels unless you use an awful lot of them. That's why the original SVT set-up used two 8x10s, and even two of the '69 models won't keep up with one of today's.
Some of the Webers may have similar specs to the better drivers of yesteryear, like EVMs and JBLs. But since they don't publish specs there's no way of knowing.

RicPlaya · #10 06-01-2011, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

The needs for guitar drivers are almost the complete opposite of those for bass. They're designed to clip at low power levels and to have nasty break up modes. That doesn't mean that bass can't sound good through them, just that they won't do so at other than low levels unless you use an awful lot of them. That's why the original SVT set-up used two 8x10s, and even two of the '69 models won't keep up with one of today's.
Some of the Webers may have similar specs to the better drivers of yesteryear, like EVMs and JBLs. But since they don't publish specs there's no way of knowing.

In my searches I heard you mention Jensens for vintage drivers... would that maybe a better option IYO?

Reason I am asking you is because I seen your products and read your responses, so I know you know you stuff!

Tnx!

billfitzmaurice · #11 06-01-2011, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RicPlaya

In my searches I heard you mention Jensens for vintage drivers... would that maybe a better option IYO?

Reason I am asking you is because I seen your products and read your responses, so I know you know you stuff!

Tnx!

Jensens are what gave vintage a bad name. You couldn't even run a 50 watt Fender Bassman through its two Jensen twelves without it sounding like the campfire scene from 'Blazing Saddles.

It shouldn't take four twelves to handle fifty watts, but with Jensens it did.
JBL, Altec and EV are what you upgraded to so you could play fart-free. OTOH to get a good compressed dirty guitar tone with JBLs, Altecs and EVs you ended up stupid loud, even with a 1x12, so if that's what you wanted Jensens or Celestions is what you used.

RicPlaya · #12 06-01-2011, 04:04 PM

Thanks Bill

D.M.N. · #13 06-01-2011, 05:41 PM

Hey Bill, just out of curiosity, have you run across any JBL K140 clones? Though it seems like RicPlaya was talking more about the weber guitar speakers, what about the Bass Series Model 15"? Or are there not enough specs to tell? It seems there are a few weber speakers CLOSE to the K140 (there's a K130 clone), but not dead on. Anyone else making a similar speaker, in your opinion?

billfitzmaurice · #14 06-01-2011, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D.M.N.

Hey Bill, just out of curiosity, have you run across any JBL K140 clones?

None I'm aware of. JBLs had very tight manufacturing tolerances, that's why they were, and for that matter still are, so expensive. The same was true of Altec and EV, it's why they had such high sensitivity and good high end response. And why they pretty much priced themselves out of the musical instrument driver market.

Quote:

Though it seems like RicPlaya was talking more about the weber guitar speakers, what about the Bass Series Model 15"? Or are there not enough specs to tell?

I don't see any specs for it on their site.

D.M.N. · #15 06-01-2011, 06:23 PM

Thanks Bill. Yeah, I hadn't turned up anything similar either, bummer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by billfitzmaurice

I don't see any specs for it on their site.

Yeah, all there is is the "physical specs" (voice coil size, magnet weight, wattage), which isn't at all informative........

billfitzmaurice · #16 06-01-2011, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D.M.N.

Yeah, all there is is the "physical specs" (voice coil size, magnet weight, wattage), which isn't at all informative........

Those are dimensions, not specs. Weber may make some very good drivers, but they're not going to put Eminence out of business any time soon. They're still very much at the cottage industry end of the spectrum.

RicPlaya · #17 06-01-2011, 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D.M.N.

Hey Bill, just out of curiosity, have you run across any JBL K140 clones? Though it seems like RicPlaya was talking more about the weber guitar speakers, what about the Bass Series Model 15"? Or are there not enough specs to tell? It seems there are a few weber speakers CLOSE to the K140 (there's a K130 clone), but not dead on. Anyone else making a similar speaker, in your opinion?

I guess I am on a quest to get somewhat vintage tone with newer products. Im sure i am not the first or last to think this way. But it appears with the science of this process i am finding out that may be impossible. Vintage essentially means obsolete technology and if I am understanding this correctly my quest may be impossible unless I use, crappy drivers more or less? Then there's going with older drivers, but drivers do have a shelf life then you get into reconeing etc.

Sure I play a P with flats, could add a little foam get an older 15 cab and be ok, but that would be too easy.. Lol

One Drop · #18 06-01-2011, 10:00 PM

I think a better solution is to get the vintage tones out of your bass using technique, strings, muting, etc, and out of your amplification, using tubes or a pedal, etc, and letting a good modern cab or amp/cab combination amplify it to the level you need for the room or the PA. Very few desirable vintage tones came from the speakers used only, more often they were a result of the sound of the whole rig, unless fuzz or grind from overworking a speaker is part of what you are looking for.

billfitzmaurice · #19 06-02-2011, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RicPlaya

I guess I am on a quest to get somewhat vintage tone with newer products.

There are many modern drivers that have vintage sound without vintage limitations, Eminence Alpha, Beta and Delta being good examples. Of course they must be matched to the cab and amp and the users intended result.

What I don't care for is advertising that implies you can toss a 'vintage' driver into a box and get great tone. That's how most speakers were built in the 50s, 60s and 70s, mainly because their manufacturers didn't know any better. For every gem that arose in that fashion there were a dozen lumps of coal. The Webers may be very good, but with no specs there's no way of knowing what they can do nor what cab and amp will work with them.

And as for that 'vintage tone' I can't stress enough that what you're hearing on old recordings is mostly the result of the recording process, not the gear used. The same applies to what you hear on modern recordings. Modern recordings tend to have a lot fatter bottom because the speakers people listen to them on today can reproduce it. Bass was given short shrift in the 50s, 60s and 70s because no one could hear it anyway on the most commonly used playback gear, automobile AM radios.