weird tone/phase problem

**nostatic** · #1 04-01-2010, 08:50 PM

OK, maybe I'm missing something but this is odd.

3 Berg cabs, all new:

AE112 older design (no recessed handle) but new speaker cab
AE112 new design (recessed handle)
AE210

I have two speaker cables, one I made (keeping phase correct, +1 on one connecter going to +1 on the other connector, -1 going to -1 one). The other is a "factory" cable that was originally speakon to 1/4", I cut the 1/4" off and added a new speakon connector. I originally had white +1 and black -1 but when I ran both 112 cabs I had phase cancellation (though each cable worked fine alone) so I swapped black to +1 and white to -1 and then running both 112 cabs sounded great.

Got the AE210 today. I hooked it up solo and sounds great. I added the AE112 (newer) and tone sucked out. Hmm. Swapped cable order around, no change. I ran both 112 cabs and sounded fine. I then ran the 210 and the older 112 and sounded fine. Weird.

OK, so what is going on here? With the same amp head, same pair of cables, running both 112 cabs sounds great, and running the 210 with one of the 112 cabs sound great while running the 210 with the *other* 112 cab sounds like it has phase cancellation.

I'm confused...

will33 · #2 04-01-2010, 08:57 PM

Best I could do was go back over all my work with a fresh head. That's a lot of combinations to keep straight. Maybe switch wires around on of the the speakers, maybe not. Write everything down, draw maps, number stuff with little pieces of tape, whatever and double check it all.

If one of the 112's is in phase with the 210 but the other is not, but that one is in phase with the other 12 that's in phase with the 210 then it should be too but it's not, etc.

Something's gone awry.

**nostatic** · #3 04-01-2010, 09:07 PM

Well, I haven't pulled apart the speaker cabs, and don't want/intend to as they are all brand new. What I don't understand is how both 112s can work, and the 210 can work with one of the 112s and not the other.

Rick Auricchio · #4 04-01-2010, 09:13 PM

Get a simple 1/4" cable and a 9v battery. Touch the + to the tip and the - to the sleeve of the plug. Note which way the cones move.

Repeat for the other cabs to make sure they're all wired with the same polarity.

If the cabs are right, check your cables again.

will33 · #5 04-01-2010, 09:15 PM

^^

Do this.

Bass_Pounder · #6 04-01-2010, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick Auricchio

Get a simple 1/4" cable and a 9v battery. Touch the + to the tip and the - to the sleeve of the plug. Note which way the cones move.

Repeat for the other cabs to make sure they're all wired with the same polarity.

If the cabs are right, check your cables again.

That is what I would do.................

It sounds as if when you "corrected" the cable, you were really correcting for a badly wired cab. It worked in that situation, but if you use that speaker cable on correctly wired cabs, you are now out of phase again.

Re-check your cables to ensure proper +/- connections, then run the 9v test on each cab.

**nostatic** · #7 04-01-2010, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick Auricchio

Get a simple 1/4" cable and a 9v battery. Touch the + to the tip and the - to the sleeve of the plug. Note which way the cones move.

Repeat for the other cabs to make sure they're all wired with the same polarity.

If the cabs are right, check your cables again.

210 cab - speaker moves out
new 112 cab - speaker move out
older 112 cab - speaker moves in

So...if I follow the logic, the older 112 cab is wired out of phase of the other two, so when I "rewired" the cable to make the pair of 112 cabs work, I set the cable up out of phase. Since it was a factory cable I couldn't open up the one speakon end and guessed at the polarity. From what I read black *should* be +1, but there is no real standard.

I'll rewire the cable and check.

*EDIT* swapped to white +1, black -1. Cabs happy.

I love this place...you guys rock

johnk_10 · #8 04-01-2010, 09:49 PM

why not just rewire the older 112 cab tomatch the phase of the other two?

Jaco who? · #9 04-01-2010, 09:49 PM

I think the "corrected" cable is confusing matters, but if I read it all correctly it sounds like one of the connectors on the newer AE112 is wired backwards. Whoa, never mind, your later posts contradict that - it would help if you notice which connectors you're daisy chaining and which you are not. It sounds like you've got ONE connector somewhere that's backwards.

Rick Auricchio · #10 04-01-2010, 10:00 PM

Definitely the older cab is wired wrong. I would correct it in that cab rather than always have to use a special cable.

As Jaco mentioned, sometimes it's just ONE of the connectors on the cab that's wrong.

If you have the time, verify the same result with BOTH connectors on the cab. Then you'll know for sure if it's a wiring error on a connector or inside the cab.

**nostatic** · #11 04-01-2010, 10:08 PM

I pulled apart the old cab. Sure enough, the cable from the crossover to the woofer was backwards - the soldered lead labeled plus on the crossover board went to the negative pole on the woofer. I pulled the connectors on the woofer, switched it, plugged it in and now there is joy in Mudville.

Thanks again all for the help.

will33 · #12 04-01-2010, 10:13 PM

These are "new" cabs right, as in they've never been taken apart or altered in any way?

**nostatic** · #13 04-01-2010, 10:14 PM

New rig of doom setup. Berg included an extra set of feet and I'm going to install them on the "side" of the 210 so it can be run vertical. I think the other 112 cab will go up for sale, though the pair of the 112s does sound particularly sweet...

Rick Auricchio · #14 04-02-2010, 08:10 PM

Your situation reminded me that I hadn't checked my two TC RS112s. I did, both jacks on each, and they're OK. But I'd totally forgotten that it's good to be sure!

**nostatic** · #15 04-02-2010, 10:51 PM

I have to give mad props to Bergantino, as Jim responded to my email query about the problem first thing this am and sorted everything out. The cab was shop stock that had a woofer pulled by the shop owner to get another customer up and running. Berg sent a new woofer, and the shop installed it but Eminence had changed the polarity on their mag design between the original manufacture the replacement. The shop didn't know that and hooked it up like the original one. I'm sure they checked it and it sounded fine, as phase doesn't matter until you have a second cab.

Jim's resolution was to drop ship me a brand new cab, and send a return tag for the other cab. Awesome customer service. I have no regrets buying my Berg cabs, and you can bet that they will get more of my business.

Bass_Pounder · #16 04-02-2010, 10:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nostatic

I have to give mad props to Bergantino, as Jim responded to my email query about the problem first thing this am and sorted everything out. The cab was shop stock that had a woofer pulled by the shop owner to get another customer up and running. Berg sent a new woofer, and the shop installed it but Eminence had changed the polarity on their mag design between the original manufacture the replacement. The shop didn't know that and hooked it up like the original one. I'm sure they checked it and it sounded fine, as phase doesn't matter until you have a second cab.

Jim's resolution was to drop ship me a brand new cab, and send a return tag for the other cab. Awesome customer service. I have no regrets buying my Berg cabs, and you can bet that they will get more of my business.

Man.........your not kidding about excellent customer service.

A brand new cab shipped to you because of a crossed wire ?

Scratching my head over that one !

James Judson · #17 04-02-2010, 11:03 PM

Good lesson. "New" doesn't alway mean its "right". My luthier called me up one day and asked me to check why a pickup did not work, he said "I wired it just like the schematic". I looked at the schematic for a minute and guess what. The schematic was wrong.

zombywoof5050 · #18 04-04-2010, 01:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nostatic

What's the gold thing under the TC amp?

Big String · #19 04-05-2010, 10:29 AM

+ one million. Jim Bergantino is absolutely top-notch an totally passionate about his products and customers, not to mention the innovative designs and engineering. He's helped me out numerous times. Didn't Jaco write a tune called Bergland...