what the audience hears vs what you hear...

Bjazzman · #1 05-04-2009, 11:31 AM

aside from trusting the soundman or having a wireless unit how can you be sure your stage mix will be what the audience hears/feels?

would you have to have the same pa as your backline?

would having a cab with a tweeter help if the pa has tweeters?

I want to know if I'm getting heard the same as the rest of the group

greenboy · #2 05-04-2009, 11:38 AM

With or without PA and a good engineer, you can not be assured that any listening position on stage or FOH will sound approximately the same as any other position FOR ANY instrument or singer or by extension of that for the summed mix, even with the same set of ears. That's the nature of acoustic spaces.

two fingers · #3 05-04-2009, 11:48 AM

That's a good discussion and a really tough call. It took me forever to learn to trust the guy out front. This is going to sound nuts, but having "your tone" out front really isn't as big of a deal as you may think. I used to get really mad when I spent lots of time, effort, and money getting my sound exactly like I liked it, only to find that the sound guy took my tone and made it "his". In fact, most pro sound guys would rather you show up with a DI box (or better yet, use theirs). If they are any good, they REALLY ARE better than you at deciding where your bass tone fits in the mix. Even if it's not how YOU hear it in your head. You probably won't win this battle either. If you have something really specific you wan't to translate to the audience, just have a NICE conversation about it with the sound guy. I run sound sometimes as well as playing bass. Nothing annoys me more than trying to get each instrument to fit in the mix during sound check, and some guy I never met before starts yelling across the room "You're not gonna leave my tone like THAT are you?????". Suddenly we're not gonna be friends and I'm less likely to work really hard to get that guy what he wants.

Bassamatic · #4 05-04-2009, 11:52 AM

Actually, you can pretty well be assured that you will not hear the same thing as your audience. You are in the middle of the band, the audience sees the entire band from a distance. It is really trial and error, and trusting your sound guy if you have one.

One thing that helped us was recording ourselves from the audience area (Zoom H4 recorder) and comparing that with what we heard on stage. Our mix on stage is not that great for US, but proper for the house.

pedro · #5 05-04-2009, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gio S

Actually, you can pretty well be assured that you will not hear the same thing as your audience. You are in the middle of the band, the audience sees the entire band from a distance. It is really trial and error, and trusting your sound guy if you have one.

One thing that helped us was recording ourselves from the audience area (Zoom H4 recorder) and comparing that with what we heard on stage. Our mix on stage is not that great for US, but proper for the house.

Neither of the two bands I play in have full PA’s and I find that its tough to ‘trust’ when the stage mix is bad. This has only been a problem in one of the two bands which had a guitarist that kept turning his Twin up.

ibnzneksrul · #6 05-04-2009, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bjazzman

how can you be sure your stage mix will be what the audience hears/feels?

IME stage mix and FOH sound is never going to be "the same." Most of our gigs there is no house P.A. - we bring our own. We have several fellow musicians and experienced sound guys who we trust come to most of our gigs and I'm always asking them how we sound out front, and we make adjustments based on what they hear. As far as stage mix goes, it's up to us to make sure monitors and instruments can be heard by all. It's tough to get that perfect stage mix but FOH is more important IMHO.

Rick Auricchio · #7 05-04-2009, 12:57 PM

Having your bass amp lower than ear level onstage will heavily reduce mids that the band hears. Your bass tone onstage will sound boomy---especially when you include the rear wall boundary. But the audience will hear those mids.

The audience, as Gio said, is hearing a blend of the band from a distance. If you had no PA at all, sound levels would be somewhat lower, and the room would tend to form a mix acoustically.

With a PA, you're boosting vocals and some instruments. If you're not miking drums, then the drum kit is not as loud in the audience either.

hasbeen · #8 05-04-2009, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenboy

With or without PA and a good engineer, you can not be assured that any listening position on stage or FOH will sound approximately the same as any other position FOR ANY instrument or singer or by extension of that for the summed mix, even with the same set of ears. That's the nature of acoustic spaces.

I agree. And this is especially so with bass. This is the main reason why over the years, I've evolved into using a tone that has as narrow a sonic footprint as possible.

So it will sit in the mix....not get boomy etc.

chadds · #9 05-04-2009, 01:01 PM

It's like this. I'm playing really great, blowing out those great riddums and the audience hears this guy whose been playing for 3 weeks. I've changed a lot of basses and amps in my day and it's still happening. The audience is hearing something different then I'm playing.

Lessons maybe?

SteveC · #10 05-04-2009, 01:03 PM

Wow, really good posts so far. I can stay off my soap box, This thread should close now before bad info gets in here.

Rick Auricchio · #11 05-04-2009, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chadds

It's like this. I'm playing really great, blowing out those great riddums and the audience hears this guy whose been playing for 3 weeks.

There's a difference between "Good player, lousy tone" and "Sloppy player, but his tone is nice."

I'd rather be the former!

DukeLeJeune · #12 05-04-2009, 01:07 PM

The less the discrepancy between the nearfield and farfield response of the bass cab, the closer your stage sound will be to the sound out in the audience. This isn't the only factor, but it's one of them. Minimizing the discrepancy between nearfield and farfield spectral balance has to do with radiation patterns.

When going through a PA system, the less discrepancy between your cab's nearfield response and the PA's farfield response, the better.

chadds · #13 05-04-2009, 01:11 PM

Okay I was kidding about the discrepancy between stage and outfront.

greenboy · #14 05-04-2009, 01:13 PM

Part of what Duke said there is that if the bass cab design is designed better to exhibit good constant directivity wherever possible, it's more likely to resemble similar axial response from a good PA. I think.

Jim Nazium · #15 05-04-2009, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hasbeen

I agree. And this is especially so with bass. This is the main reason why over the years, I've evolved into using a tone that has as narrow a sonic footprint as possible.

So it will sit in the mix....not get boomy etc.

Can you elaborate on that please? I'm not sure what a "narrow footprint" is.

greenboy · #16 05-04-2009, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Nazium

Can you elaborate on that please? I'm not sure what a "narrow footprint" is.

I thought hasbeen's statement defined itself when he said "So it will sit in the mix".

Unfortunately, there is so much subjective hearing that can go on when one is really thinking about their bass's tone and their contribution to the band's sound that they are not always able to hear what others might be hearing. Somehow "sits in the mix" becomes "hits in the mix" or "glitz in the mix" ; }

It's a maturation process to learn to gracefully "fit and sit", and it depends on the type/genre of music and band/leader concept of what the music is about and what is what, too...

hasbeen · #17 05-04-2009, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Nazium

Can you elaborate on that please? I'm not sure what a "narrow footprint" is.

sure.

Large footprint: lots of lows.....plenty of stuff going on down around 40hz. The mids wouldn't necessarily be scooped but, they wouldn't be boosted either. Boosted highs.

So, a large footprint covers the spectrum. The lows can "get away from you" and get boomy. ....and also fight with the kick drum. The highs can fight with cymbals and such.

Narrow footprint: this tone is much more low-mid and mid oriented. Fits "between" the kick drum and the guitars.

I did a few gigs with a prog metal band....did all Porcupine Tree. I'm not a metal player but hey, it was a gig. Man, that music was "busy". I had lots of trouble with my Lakland during our few rehearsals.......the lows were stepping all over the kick drums and such. ....no matter how I eq'd. I switched to a Ken Smith. Presto...problem solved.

Now, if I were doing a funk gig where the mix and music weren't so "busy", I could open up my tone a bit.

I hope this helps.

hasbeen · #18 05-04-2009, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenboy

I thought hasbeen's statement defined itself when he said "So it will sit in the mix".

Unfortunately, there is so much subjective hearing that can go on when one is really thinking about their bass's tone and their contribution to the band's sound that they are not always able to hear what others might be hearing. Somehow "sits in the mix" becomes "hits in the mix" or "glitz in the mix" ; }

It's a maturation process to learn to gracefully "fit and sit", and it depends on the type/genre of music and band/leader concept of what the music is about and what is what, too...

Bingo...on the type/genre...

You posted that as I was writing my repsonse. See my last part of it.

greenboy · #19 05-04-2009, 01:44 PM

hasbeen,

It also brings back the topic of "arrangements" I might have mentioned somewhere today. In some bands with a lot of players, horns, percussion, background vocalist section, guitar, keys, you can pretty much sail right through sounding great and big and really it's effortless. Why? Because the style of arranging even when it gets busy just doesn't have a lot of masking going on. Parts all interlock well and travel in a way that doesn't obscure.

...And then, usually there is only one guitarist in such a band, and he might occasionally use a chimey chording tone instead of a wall of distorted barres ; }

EDIT: Jeez, my long lost bruddah is here!!!

Jim C · #20 05-04-2009, 01:45 PM

I used to play bass and do live sound at a 200 seat club here in DC (called the 9:30 club).
Due to the stage placement (in a corner) and room acoustics the stage sound was never close to FoH sound for a rock band. Have also noticed that the typical home made, plywood on all sides, stage can act like a drum and sounds different to the players than a rigid open sided, professional rental stage.
What was even more interesting was how the FoH sound changed from the empty room at soundcheck to the sold out show; thus making the "let me see how it sounds out front during soundcheck" even more frustrating.
Lastly, the sound you hear at rehearsal (or in your head) may not be a realistic expectation no matter whom the sound guy is due to all of the above as well as PA gear.
Also, the need to get vocals at the front of the mix, not have feedback, and some vague control over blead into stage mics, are other factors that will change the final outcome.

Given pro gear and pro players, it seems to get closest at somewhere between 500 - 2,000 seats assuming the rooms are decent. It's the small and large rooms that can get ugly.
.02 but based on a lot of experience although I have not spent much time mixing FoH with in ear stage monitoring