What do I really need, cab or better PA?

[RAT6V6]

I have done searches and read many posts but I need some specific info I hope you can share with me.

I just started playing bass 6 months ago. (played guitar for years which has helped on basics)

I joined a classic rock band (bunch a guys like same music)
which comprises of

Acoustic Rhythm guitar through a 2 x 12 - 100 w amp + PA

Lead guitar 60 w traynor tube amp 1 x 12 + PA

Singer - Harmonica/Mandolin - PA

Back up singer - PA

Our PA is a Peavy 200w 8 channel mixer with 2 - 12 inch speakers (no subs) + 3 - 100 w Kustom stage monitors.

We play summer parties outside on backyard decks as stage (think 1/2 acre property 50 - 100 people).

The problem - can't hear the bass in the mix, heard the mid range but the low end was missing.

I then bought a 1x10 Ibanez Promethean amp which has been much better for practice, but I am worried it will not be loud enough once we go outside. (Backyard party) With possible percusion (not drums) using remaining PA inputs, I may be on my own (no PA).

I am pondering 3 options and can't decide which will be better in the long run:

1) Buy a GK 410 MBX or MBE cabinet (75-60 lbs) and run with my 1 x 10 Promethean to get 500 w from the Promethean or 250w into the 410 by itself?. I have played them at guitar stores and they sounded alright. I found the 15 inch versions (GK) too "woofy" The 410s sounded more clear.

2) Reading FearFul posts and thinking building 12/6 or 15/6 would be fun, but reading that my 250w into 8 ohms may not be enough power to get bass out of the speaker (need 500- 1000w 8 ohm amp or did I misread this about these speakers.) Does my amp have enough power to get decent sound out of a Fearful speaker?

3) Use 1x10 as stage monitor and send the DI to a new purchased 1000W powered 15 inch speaker like QSC or Behringer 1200w and mix with the PA. Basically use the new 1000w speaker to suppliment the 200w PA and send my bass DI in as the second input. This option will boost my bass and the band but with no additional sub woofer will I get the missing bass I am looking for.

Trying to keep cost to $600 or down. This is for fun, we don't get paid (not yet) so if it was your money, what would you do. Also, keep in mind, I am looking for small as I need to carry all by myself into my small car (no van/SUV available).

Additional questions about equipment matching.

Using a 500w class D micro amp (my case Promethean), what would be louder (SPL), either of the GK 410s listed above or a 15/6 fearful? Which would give a more fuller bassy 70s/80s rock tone?

Thanks for any comments. All opinions welcome.

[will33]

You have a good amp in the Promethian head. A decent 410, 212, or better yet, fEARful would put you at the level of the other instruments and whatever your PA can muster for vocals and acoustic. I'd get that much. That'll put the whole band on an even keel. Then, work on a bigger PA if you need to make the whole band louder than it is, meaning a subwoofer, drum mics.....everybody.

The fearful is one of the best there is. If you're concerned about amp power, get the 15/6 instead of the 12. It's already higher in spl so will go loud without as much power. With the power....even louder, but you won't need the extra power with what you're playing with.

[TheRealKong]

The Promethean delivers 250 Watt @ 4 Ohms when played alone with the 110-cab. Getting another 8-Ohm - cab will bring You the whole 500 Watts the Promethean is able to deliver.

There is a nice 8-Ohm cab with a 15'' - speaker made for the Promethean. Try this out. It gives You a lots of low end and response.

Take a close look at Your EQing. Pushing the mids will give You better, more hearable frequences and make You cut through in the mix.

I know some people who do every venue, even open air, with the Promethean 5110 and an extension cab. Even better than the 1x15'' - cab is the 4x10'' - cab Ibanez buits for the Promethean.

You will push more air by adding speakers than by adding power.

[4Mal]

Even a 12.6 with 300 into 8 (mb500) is pretty loud. A 15.6 would be better yet. Definately a cab that you can grow with. I do a lot of acoustic work. I use a 1x10 as a monitor most places and take a line to the PA. You might build the fEarful but install a biamp/active switch. Then you can use it as a sub or as your bass cab. I have 2 12.6's setup that way. Very flexible rig. I also have 2 fEarful 12 subs. So I can put either 1 or 2 per side under my PA tops depending on what I'm doing. Of course you need a power amp with DSP or a cross over as well but it is a real solid approach.

I move my PA, bass rig, basses and a small lighting setup in a Subaru Outback. Just like rock 'n roll only smaller

[RAT6V6]

Thanks for the comments.

Up here in Canada no one stocks the Promethean cabinets. Even the amps are hard to find.

My main choices in 4 x 10 available locally are
GK cabs - lowest cost - MBX or MBE series. Light weight decent sound, high sensitivity, low cost.

Ampeg - 4 x10s expnsive but have not tried out.

Traynor, more expensive than GK, and sound a little lower SPL. Same price as Ampeg. Not bad.

Mesa powerhouse - (too heavy to carry, nice sound). Reminded me of GK RBH series, but I could not even lift the cab by myself.

Markbass - light but the most expensive. Almost 3x price of MBX.

This is my first cab purchase. It is hard to determine in store as they don't let you crank it up, so all cabs tested were at low level.

To me the Ampeq / Mesa sounded a little better than the GK but were almost twice the price, so that is why I am leaning towards GK.

I see a lot of positive comments on the fEARful cabs but not having heard one I am not sure.

Any more comments. Thanks again.

[will33]

Originally Posted by RAT6V6

Thanks for the comments.

Up here in Canada no one stocks the Promethean cabinets. Even the amps are hard to find.

My main choices in 4 x 10 available locally are
GK cabs - lowest cost - MBX or MBE series. Light weight decent sound, high sensitivity, low cost.

Ampeg - 4 x10s expnsive but have not tried out.

Traynor, more expensive than GK, and sound a little lower SPL. Same price as Ampeg. Not bad.

Mesa powerhouse - (too heavy to carry, nice sound). Reminded me of GK RBH series, but I could not even lift the cab by myself.

Markbass - light but the most expensive. Almost 3x price of MBX.

This is my first cab purchase. It is hard to determine in store as they don't let you crank it up, so all cabs tested were at low level.

To me the Ampeq / Mesa sounded a little better than the GK but were almost twice the price, so that is why I am leaning towards GK.

I see a lot of positive comments on the fEARful cabs but not having heard one I am not sure.

Any more comments. Thanks again.

If the GK is affordable/available where you're at, that'll do what needs doing in your situatuon and sound pretty good doing it. That'll give you a real bass rig that'll carry the rest of your band with the equipment they're using. More bass gear purchases after that would be for different tonal varieties/flavors, etc., or beefing up the PA in the interest of the whole band, not just one instrument out of it.

[Downunderwonder]

The very fact that you asked the question tell me you're prepared to live out of the square. How about the rest of the band?

The amp you have can cut it at practice right? That means you can play at same volume or thereabouts onstage and mic the whole lot up. If the PA has main mix inserts you could increase the overall quality of the sound a whole lot by expanding the PA with subs. It would cost a bit more than $600 unless you DIY.

You have to do something as the PA speakers can't handle bass without subs anyway. I hope whoever owns them has enough sense to kill your bottom end EQ or they will be getting wrecked.

[RAT6V6]

Thanks for the comments.

Yes - I am trying to keep an open mind, big picture to make sure I fit the mix.

The lead guitarist owns the PA system and thank about the bass comment, we did not know that.

Part of the problem is the PA has 8 inputs and they are talking about adding a "percusion" guy (bongos, ??) that will use the last input (the input the bass was using). So if I go with PA, I may need to buy a small mixer to add 2-4 channels to the PA.

That is why I am debating, adding to the PA or do I go stand alone with my own cab and try to use my stage volume to mix with the PA system.

This is all new to me. (Stage sound set up).

Never realized there are many factors to mixing in all the players so the band sound whole without one part either over powering or unheard.

[RickenBoogie]

The PA the band has now will not do you as a bass player any good. You'd be much better seved with a good bass cab, 4x10, 2x12, or even 2x15. Besides, it's always a giood idea to have a good bass cab, or 2, or 3.

[mixamatchi]

Get everyone's instruments OUT of that teeny pa. Guitars @ 60watts are quite loud. With the pa you are working with, things are do-able, but just put vocals in it. As for your bass rig, a fEarful 15/6 is an excellent choice, and leaves you room for much more if you decide to get a bigger amp. You need more sound, and the guitars need to turn down. Another thing to keep in mind, is everyone's sound should occupy a different space. I once played with a guitarist whose sound was so low endy, that I played with way too much midrange. The end result was very loud, and not too pleasant. As we worked our sounds out, we were able to hear ourselves much better,and we sounded much better to our audience. Having two guitars, means they may be fighting each other to be able to hear themselves. They each need to have a sound that leaves room for the other, and the rest of the band too.

[Downunderwonder]

Originally Posted by RAT6V6

I am pondering 3 options and can't decide which will be better in the long run:

1) Buy a GK 410 MBX or MBE cabinet (75-60 lbs) and run with my 1 x 10 Promethean to get 500 w from the Promethean or 250w into the 410 by itself?. I have played them at guitar stores and they sounded alright. I found the 15 inch versions (GK) too "woofy" The 410s sounded more clear.

2) Reading FearFul posts and thinking building 12/6 or 15/6 would be fun, but reading that my 250w into 8 ohms may not be enough power to get bass out of the speaker (need 500- 1000w 8 ohm amp or did I misread this about these speakers.) Does my amp have enough power to get decent sound out of a Fearful speaker?

3) Use 1x10 as stage monitor and send the DI to a new purchased 1000W powered 15 inch speaker like QSC or Behringer 1200w and mix with the PA. Basically use the new 1000w speaker to suppliment the 200w PA and send my bass DI in as the second input. This option will boost my bass and the band but with no additional sub woofer will I get the missing bass I am looking for.

Trying to keep cost to $600 or down. This is for fun, we don't get paid (not yet) so if it was your money, what would you do. Also, keep in mind, I am looking for small as I need to carry all by myself into my small car (no van/SUV available).

Additional questions about equipment matching.

Using a 500w class D micro amp (my case Promethean), what would be louder (SPL), either of the GK 410s listed above or a 15/6 fearful? Which would give a more fuller bassy 70s/80s rock tone?

Thanks for any comments. All opinions welcome.

So much to accomplish with not so much money.

I think the fearful would do you well in your situation. Good form factor for throwing in the back seat and not overly heavy with the 3015LF.

Trying to complement the PA with gear that you have to cart in a small car, that's a hard ask, and not possible to do correctly without spending some money. Your option 3 is a non starter. If you put the band in it the sound will be muddy.

I asked if the power mixer has mix inserts, you insert a crossover into the main mix and send back the highs, send lows to another amp and sub(s). You have to take the low bass out of the PA 12" cabs and put it in subs.

The rest of the band has to play "energetic low volume" for that to work with your existing bass amp. But when you relieve 12" tops of 100Hz and below they produce well. The band could play much bigger shows, still sound good, and not invest in much more than another small mixer for drums.

Longer term you would get a better set of speakers and another sub, and a van.

[DigitalMan]

Originally Posted by dog1

Who says that this is an excellent choice? I agree that their PA is quite lacking for instrument mix, but the fEarful crowd is wearing me out. I am sorry that I can't agree that the fEarful design is God's gift to bass. Great design? Yes. The ultimate answer to all our bass questions? No.

I always wonder why the fEARful crowd gets a free pass from the "never mix speaker sizes" crowd.

My vote is for 4x10 or two 2x10. Any company with the initials MB is fine. (actually, get the brand that sounds best to you)

Speakers are like shoes. Never buy on the cheap. Your toes and your ears are some of your most sensitive parts.

[singlemalt]

Are you the kind of guy that likes hanging inthe shop with tools and tunes?

Got that DIY gene? Like saying " I built that!" ? Got more time than money?

If that's you, build a fEarful 15/6/1. There's a reason we're loud and proud. You'll get great bass sound with the watts you have.

If you are not likely to see a project through, buy a decent sounding used can.

Your $600 will build a fEarful, figure 20 to 30 hours of work, including ordering, shopping, and building. Many more hours if you get sucked into the fEarful threads.

[rpsands]

Originally Posted by DigitalMan

I always wonder why the fEARful crowd gets a free pass from the "never mix speaker sizes" crowd.

My vote is for 4x10 or two 2x10. Any company with the initials MB is fine. (actually, get the brand that sounds best to you)

Speakers are like shoes. Never buy on the cheap. Your toes and your ears are some of your most sensitive parts.

Sounds like someone doesn't know what a crossover is or why not mixing speaker sizes is good.

Read more thread and you can find the answers you seek.

[rpsands]

Originally Posted by dog1

Thanks Digitalman. I guess I have become tired of the fEarful crowd and their banterings. Best of the best? Who says?

They do their job well. And are a different niche than Duke's stuff fit sure.

Conventional big box bass cabs are garbage. Period. Too expensive. Too heavy. Badly engineered. Junk.

If you can't did your sound with Baer, barefaced, duke or greenboy you are a serious exception.

[dog1]

Originally Posted by rpsands

They do their job well. And are a different niche than Duke's stuff fit sure.

Conventional big box bass cabs are garbage. Period. Too expensive. Too heavy. Badly engineered. Junk.

If you can't did your sound with Baer, barefaced, duke or greenboy you are a serious exception.

Yeah. I understand your point. I use Duke's stuff, and don't GAS for anything else.

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by rpsands

Conventional big box bass cabs are garbage. Period. Too expensive. Too heavy. Badly engineered. Junk.

That would all be true except it's not. Are those new types of cabs great? They sure are. But the old style cabs define what we all know as bass, so they're not going anywhere. People love them, and maybe some don't, but it's not bad engineering. Acoustic imperfections that work out to the sound's benefit, if you will.

[mixamatchi]

Somehow, suggesting a fEarful became a point of contention. I took the OP's question in context of "How can I make this work?", and answered as such. For those who think fEarful cabs can't be the right answer, I used a 4/10 for a long time, and yes that would be an improvement. As for what it sounds like, a 4/10 may have a more traditional sound. The fEarful has a greater range of sound than my 4/10 had- it has more of everything. You can eq to your liking. My main point is mot to endorse a product, but to suggest a way of operating live. Having a pa does not mean that everyone should be in it. If it's a big pa (2500 watts at least), then yes. Your pa will do a fine job @ just vocals, with that much band. It has to overcome live drums, 2 guitar amps and a bass amp. Again, everyone needs their place in the mix, and keeping it simple is the best way to go, with what you are working with.

[rpsands]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

That would all be true except it's not. Are those new types of cabs great? They sure are. But the old style cabs define what we all know as bass, so they're not going anywhere. People love them, and maybe some don't, but it's not bad engineering. Acoustic imperfections that work out to the sound's benefit, if you will.

I think that is the exception rather than the rule.

[DukeLeJeune]

Originally Posted by will33

The fearful is one of the best there is. If you're concerned about amp power, get the 15/6 instead of the 12. It's already higher in spl so will go loud without as much power. With the power....even louder, but you won't need the extra power with what you're playing with.

I agree with this assessment of the fEarfuls. Thoroughly thought-out, optimized, well-engineered designs, and the xx/x/1 versions can even double as a small PA system because they have enough high-quality bottom end extension, overall clarity, accuracy, wide dispersion, and SPL capability.